I don't think anyone's really here to bash Christians, at least not deliberately. It simply tends to be a by-product of any genuine attempt to debate anything with them, and we should all know better by now. The fact of the matter is that your 'let's label as Satanic anything that isn't approved of by the Rev. Graham Capill' suggestion, (and yes, that was hyperbole, but bear with me as I'm desperately trying to make a point here), is ill-thought out and pretty much utterly unworkable. Most Christian artists are all too eager to label themselves Christian. They're not ashamed of their faith and more power to them. Secular artists may share any number of faiths or personal belief systems, and if music retailers were forced to catergorise all music according to the pantheon of deities a particular band paid homage to, no one would ever find the CD they were after in Real Groovy ever again. Not without a map anyway. As ideas go, it's a complete non-starter. It's not about persecuting hapless Christians. It's about being practical.
Personally, I don't regard Slipknot, Korn or Eminem to be Satanic. They're loud, purposely grotesque and perhaps lacking in subtlety, but I doubt they're card carrying members of the Church of Satan. Marilyn Manson, as far as I'm aware, was a close friend of the late Anton Szandor LaVey, but anyone who knows anything about LaVey's organisation knows that they were, and remain, pranksters, subversives and mischievous individualists, as opposed to baby-raping, church-burning cannibals. Satan may be real to you, but to LaVey and those who followed him, he was little more than a symbol of rebellion. This is by no means true of all such organisations, (the Temple of Set believes Satan is more than a mere icon), but generally speaking, Satanists are not out to abduct your first-born, corrupt your teenage daughter or infiltrate and undermine your place of worship. Why bother when many Christians have proven they're perfectly capable of undermining their own cause without external interference?
You've been honest with us, so I'm going to be honest with you. When I listen to Christian music, I feel one of two things; nauseated or really, really bored. It's the same song over and over again, done in different styles, by different musicians. "Hooray for Jesus! God is awesome! I'm so grateful you saved my wretched carcass from the eternal fires of Hell! Let me kiss your sandals in appreciation!" I find it dull, but that's just me. If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, that's just super, but please bear in mind that it doesn't necessarily work the same way for all of us.
Oh, purely out of interest, and seeing as how your mother made clear her disapproval of your Korn poster, how does she feel about fantasy role-playing games? Are they, like Marilyn Manson, a tool of the Evil One, manipulating the populace in such a way as to mesmerise legions of slack-jawed adolescents into unthinking obedience to the Forces of Darkness?
Something like this perhaps...
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//*Isn't it only fair if MUSIC that is outwardly satanic and evil be labelled is the same is being done to christian artists?*//
Who is to say what constitutes 'Satanic'? The Christian Heritage Party? Brian Tamaki? You? This sort of labelling is dangerous because it's both highly subjective and open to interpretation. I doubt Marilyn Manson regards his music as 'Satanic', but I'm sure he'd find it amusing. Many hip-hop artists openly discuss busting a cap in someone's arse, pimping their hoes and selling illicit drugs for vast quantities of cash. Is this 'Satanic'? It's probably a little unsavoury, but has it been vomited forth from the sulphurous pits of Hell? I don't know. Let's dial 0900-UNSAVED and get our information direct from the source. Christian musicians use the 'Christian' label as a selling point. Many of them are unwilling to compromise their faith, even if it means they won't reach as many heathens with the saving grace of Christ Our Lord. They accept that. To do otherwise would make them no better than many secular artists, and as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Violating the tenets of your faith, even if you've the best reason in the world, does not negate the fact that you've violated the tenets of your faith. Christian music labels can't agree even among themselves which bands are 'genuinely Christian', as was evidenced by the recent furor over Evanescence. Some members of the band happen to be Christians. Do they regard themselves as a 'Christian band'? No. Apparently, due to Amy Lee and Ben Moody's liberal use of expletives during an interview, they were suddenly deemed by their Christian publishers to be 'no longer suitable' for publication. Add to this confusion the fact that many Christians, thanks to years of deliberate misinformation, have little idea of what Satanism actually is, and you've a recipe for disaster. If Christian artists wish to openly advertise their faith, so be it. But categorising bands willy-nilly when no one has a clear idea of whether or not those categories are either meaningful or even remotely accurate is just...well, dumb.
//*why is it not fair for a christian to be all proud of there faith (or any religious group), but its fine to knock them down and in general be horrible to them.. and then claim its like all there fault. Also how is it that poeple feel there opinion is somehow more write? its like believing you are somehow correct and that a billion christians, or islamic persons or whatever a wrong,,, now thats self rightious.*//
It's not fine to knock them down and be horrible to them, and I don't think anyone is disputing this. People are free to believe whatever it is they feel they need to believe in order to be happy, and persecuting someone for their beliefs, or lack thereof, is generally accepted as being naughty. Don't pick on the Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, or Christians. Likewise, don't harass the Atheists, Agnostics, Wiccans, or Satanists. If they're not pissing on your lawn, leave them alone. I think the issue here is that certain Christians simply can't resist wading into the fray with arguments so flimsy they appear to be held together with three safety pins and a stick of half-chewed gum. You can't force someone to share your views. You can debate, persuade or bribe, but eventually you're going to have to let someone arrive at a conclusion on their own. Standing on a soap box and hurling scripture from spittle-flecked lips isn't going to win you any converts. You're just going to make a lot of people very nervous.
Watching people stuff handfuls of rancid cow brain into their mouths is interesting for about two minutes, after which you begin to question their mental competence. Incidentally, Scare Tactics is hosted by Shannen Doherty, who recently declared on 60 Minutes, "I'm trying to find a way to say this without sounding conceited...but, well, people watch the show to see me." Of course they do Shannen, of course they do.
//*Yeh SlipKnot are satanic and if you don't believe they are then they are doing their job. They don't want people to know they are satanic. Is that because if they were labelled a 'satanic' band their record sales would drop? Slayer are just as bad if not worse i agree.
Also singing about GOD is not the same as singing about life from a christian perspective. Some christian music is like "i love God" bla bla bla. Alot of christian bands will sing about the same issues as so called "secular" bands. eg. the issue of suicide - a christian band would sing about how there is still hope and life is worth living wheras a band such as slipKnot or slayer would encourage killing yourself or cutting yourself to cause yourself pain etc.
I'm not saying christian music shouldn't be put in the 'christian section' in a record store but why is it satanic bands are considered secular, shouldn't there be a 'satanic section' also?
- Their are hardcore christian bands with growlers similar to slipKnot and stuff, what would they be trying to prove by making a song swearing about satan though?
for all who r curious to hear some christian metal, d-load some 'Demon Hunter', 'Living Sacrifice' or 'Mortification. It's some mental stuff. *//
This sort of thing makes me snicker. Certain Christians firmly believe that there are no shades of grey in life. Their Jesus is like George W. Bush, you're either with him or you're against him. Therefore, all music that is not explicitly 'Christian', is Satanic by virtue of its very nature. Secular music is inspired by Satan. We're all closet Satanists, we're just in denial. It doesn't make a jot of difference if you don't give a toss about the whole God/Devil, Good/Evil dynamic, as it in no way negates the fact that you're an unwitting pawn of the Dark Lord. Repent! Repent before it's too late! And once you've finished repenting, I suggest you make your way post haste to the nearest Christian retailer and pick up the latest Michael W. Smith album.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've an unbaptised infant to dismember in the name of Lucifer. Cheerio.
I used to work in the 'hospitality' industry. I now refuse to accept any offer of employment that demands I interact with the general public. If working at a hotel teaches you one thing, it's to depise the rest of humanity.
Being able to submit lyrics would definitely be advantageous. That way we'd no longer have to listen to Mareko tell us over and over again that he's here to stay, or worse, recite the Fire Safety mantra. If we're especially fortunate, Scribe may happen along occasionally too, seeking something a little more inspired than 'How many dudes you know roll like this?!'
//*Yeah, I know that a lot of you guys don't care, but God bless ya'll*//
Actually, I think you'll find that we do care, or we wouldn't waste so much bandwidth debating the issue.
I'll listen to P.O.D. Hell, I'll even listen to DCTalk. I'm not about to condemn a band to the musical abyss simply because the members happen to be Christians. In the same fashion, despite it no longer being 'cool' to admit to liking Marilyn Manson, I do.
A combination of the two. My mother was and remains a Jehovah's Witness. I was dragged along to the 'Kingdom Hall' three times a week from birth until I was old enough to make my disapproval of this arrangement glaringly apparent. My girlfriend's parents made it abundantly clear to me that I was a 'bad influence' and that my presence was no longer required. My girlfriend, being a wholesome Christian soul, refused to dishonour her parents by fraternising with a filthy heathen against their wishes.
I responded to this turn of events by becoming a goth and writing screeds of appalling poetry. I'm over it now.
//*so what makes a christian a christian? mister and vorpal?*//
That's the million dollar question isn't it? If I recall correctly, Jesus allegedly said something along the lines of, "Whomsoever shall believeth in me, will get a pat on the head and a toffee apple in Heaven." So, I guess all you're really required to do is 'have faith', although I imagine making some vague attempt to be a decent human being isn't going to hurt your chances either. If God really is as he's portrayed in the New Testament, then I doubt he's really going to place a great deal of importance on whether or not you habitually give great wads of cash to the Church. Besides, these days, according to Brian Tamaki anyway, it's all about having 'a personal relationship with your Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ', which of course gives any self-respecting Christian a little room to maneuvre, depending upon their subjective interpretation.
At the end of the day, if you think you're a pretty decent Christian, and your co-workers and neighbours don't absolutely despise you, chances are you probably right. Just don't get cocky.
And this is why I'm an agnostic. Thinking about this stuff, let alone attempting to have an intelligent conversation about it, is enough to give you an aneurysm.
It's both cliched and horrendously politically incorrect, but I'm going to say it anyway -- "Arguing about religion is like competing in the special olympics; even if you win, you're still retarded."
Agreed. I know some perfectly decent Christians, and some I want to bludgeon to death with a tyre iron. Mass generalisations don't help anyone.
If you're going to set yourself up as some sort of moral yardstick, as Jesus did, instructing your followers that they're to strive to the best of their abilities to be just like you, knowing at the same time that they're pretty much doomed to failure by virtue of their own sinful nature, then that's not only cruel, it's kind of dumb. And when a Christian, bound by the Word of God, scampers about the place swearing, drinking, taking drugs and indulging in promiscuous sex, whilst claiming it's okay because they're 'saved' and Jesus will forgive them anyway, then that's inflammatory AND hypocritical -- more so when they're given to making disparaging remarks about we poor unsaved heathens and the eternity of hellfire that allegedly awaits us.
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not simply 'bashing the Christians'. I'm merely stating that if you're going to 'talk the talk', you better make damn sure you can 'walk the walk', because at the slightest hint of 'do as I say not as I do', you're going to be hauled across the coals for being a sanctimonious arse, and deservedly so.
I guess a band can't help but sound monotonous when all they're permitted to sing about is Jesus.
'God is awesome! God is great! Hooray for God! Etc, etc, ad infinitum...'
Still, you have to admire their dedication.
I think that's what's referred to as 'convenient Christianity'. Swearing, taking drugs and drinking to excess are all very, very naughty...but if you only do it occasionally Jesus will forgive you. I don't particularly mind hypocrisy, it's the feeble attempts to justify it I find entertaining.
//*The host, Pio Terei gingerly climbed down the steep steps at the side of the stage, carefully gripping the rail. When he reached the bottom he launched into that "walk right in, sit right down" song.*//
I'm trying to feel bad about missing it, but it's just not happening.
I have every confidence that research scientists at Otago University will one day discover a valid medical term for what is actually wrong with you. Apart from the obvious I mean.
Been to a WINZ seminar recently? You know, one of those humiliating experiments in psychological torture, during which you're patronised by some obnoxious twat in a cardigan.
WINZ Drone: "Hey kids! My name's Barry, Barry Dixon, but you can call me 'Baz', or 'Bazza' if you like. Today we're going to discuss 'self-esteem'! Who can tell me what 'self-esteem' is?"
Helpless Peon: "Self-esteem is what I had prior to coming here."
WINZ Drone: "Hahahahahaha! Nice one! Hahahahahaha! Very funny! Moving right along -- I'm going to hand out sheets of cardboard, scissors and boxes of crayons, and what I'd like everyone to do is to make a colourful name tag that really describes how they see themselves as an individual. It'll be loads of fun, really, and once we've done that, we can spend the remainder of the afternoon on teambuilding exercises!"
Helpless Peon: "Kill me. Someone, anyone, kill me now..."
And people think the unemployed have an easy time of it.
If they only knew the awful truth.
War, Famine and Death are preoccupied in Africa and the Middle East. Pestilence has generously taken a little time out of his otherwise hectic schedule to pay Dunedin an impromptu visit. Things will only get worse. George W. Bush will eventually suffer a cocaine relapse and, in the midst of a drug-induced hallucination, launch a salvo of nuclear warheads at the Russian Federation, plunging the world into a nuclear armageddon from which it will never recover.
In the words of Miss Bitters, "We're all doomed, doomed, doomed!"
Liam Finn’s musical escapades leave me cold. Not because, as Officer alleges, he’s a talentless gimp riding Daddy’s coattails to success, but because betchadupa’s music just doesn’t do anything for me. Nevertheless, the opportunity to be mentored by a venerable Finn, irrespective of whether or not it may involve money, is nothing to be sneezed at. Any rookie who scorns the advice of those who have been there and done that deserves to fail, if only as a lesson in humility. Officer’s remarks in that respect were both speculative and spiteful.
In regard to his criticism of Elemeno P’s lyrics, I suppose we could be forgiven for thinking it’s yet another tedious case of literary elitism. My question is; when does it stop being literary elitism and become ‘crap lyrics syndrome’? Can we no longer point at crap lyrics, claiming they are, in fact, crap, without being labelled an unappreciative philistine? If so, it’s a pretty sorry state of affairs. People raved about Zed’s ‘Renegade Fighter’, which is quite possibly the most annoyingly repetitive pile of dung I’ve heard in years, but whenever I brought up how stomach-churningly bad it was, I was told I was an old misery-guts trying to rain on their parade. I was bitter, and ignorant, and envious of their success. Frankly, if my success were based solely on a song like ‘Renegade Fighter’, my only emotional response would be one of profound shame. Now, I’m not saying that in order to be of any worth as a musician you’ve got to write songs that make Dostoevsky look like Dr. Seuss, but surely there must be some sort of quality control mechanism in place to separate the wheat from the chaff, if only to prevent us from asphyxiating beneath the weight of musical abortions like Eiffel 65’s ‘Blue’.
To be blunt, I have no great desire to hear Cameron Officer sing, and as a reviewer he should have known better. I’m not overly impressed with Dave Gibson’s vocal skills either, but then I’m not dense enough to claim I could do any better. I know for a fact I couldn’t. Having said that, I do think if someone sounds awful, the very least we can do is try to prevent them from humiliating themselves anymore than is absolutely necessary. Someone should have done Bob Dylan this courtesy decades ago.
Now let’s all hold hands and sing happy Christian songs.
//*farking bums who steal my money (taxes) get a real job!!!*//
Kittenslayer, if you really want to confront the people who take your hard-earned cash and fritter it away on unecessary expenses, I recommend heading to Wellington and setting up camp outside the Beehive. Our esteemed leaders have recently seen fit to give themselves yet another raise. Oh, and they've taken to referring to MP's 'perks' as 'entitlements'. Poor buggers. It must be unbearably stressful to have to shout at each other all day in exchange for fat wads of cash.
I hate the Datsuns. I just thought I'd throw that out there, because...well, just because.