Paselode @ Soundproof, Hamiltron, Friday June 2nd
Ok, first up I feel obliged to apologise for, well, Hamilton really. If you were there you'll know what I'm talking about. Hamilton probably seems like a very scary place if the regulars at Soundproof are anything to go on.
So anyway, yeah - I missed most of the opening bands (was there more than one? I'm not sure...). I did see a little bit of the band before Paselode, but I'm afraid I can't remember their name or much of their music - probably more my fault than theirs, although in my defence, Soundproof isn't a bar that I feel awefully safe staying in for any longer than absolutely neccessary. Luckily my timing was pretty good, and Paselode got things rolling before I chickened out and ran home.
Well, I've seen these guys twice now and I still don't know how to describe them. I won't attempt to pigeon-hole them into any one genre, as they hop between genres casually and frequently, and flirt with all the other genres when they settle on a particular blend for a song. They do have a serious rock/groove thing going on, and just enough prettiness, melody and art to keep things interesting. And considering how often they chop and change tempos and time signitures, they are a very dancable band (a dozen bobbing shaved heads can't be wrong).
Friday's set was pretty damn good. An unfortunate mix didn't do them any favours (I'm sure some of their instruments to actually have treble and volume controls), but the songs and energy carried through regardless. I would love to hear these guys with a nice mix, I'm sure it would be mind blowing. In fact the first time I saw them at the Kings Arms they pretty much were.
Dispite the "mix", the songs carried through regardless. They were so good that I almost bought their CD (which for me to even consider is good sign). I'm a little bit scared that the CD won't be as good as they are live though - but I haven't heard it yet, so I'm prepared to be presently suprised. They have and energy and quality that I don't often see (although perhaps I should get out of Hamilton more) and the songs are just plain cool.
And... funniest moment(s) of the night were the occasional blast beats between songs that sent the crowd into a brief head-wobbling-beer-guzzling frenzy. Ahhhh... only in Hamilton. Glad the band made it out intact.
Dylan Lee
oh - and to answer your question - yes, it's pretty standard practice these days, and it's getting easier and easier to do too. Doesn't *always* happen, I have no idea what the numbers are - but it's certainly a very commonly done thing.
A lot of artists and producers are anti-editing, and others are less so. It's just another one of those pointless debates if you ask me. In the words of Joe Meek "if it sounds good it is good".
Night night.
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I just save up all my typing power and unleash in one or two big monster posts!
As for timing drums? I guess you are talking about editing drum takes? I don't really know what the answer is. I've seen it done every way from raw drum takes with no editing whatsoever, through to drum takes that were so chopped up they may as well have been programmed.
I know it's not useful... but there really are no rules. There are some genres that would resent the idea of editing drums too much... but put a blindfold on them and they'd probably be stoked with how much better things can sound with a nip and tuck done tastefully.
One big danger while we're on the subject is making sure that the drummer doesn't anticipate that "oh they're just going to edit them later so I can just play like crap" cos he/she won't even try to pull of a great take, so you'll end up with a take with no spark to it - and the editopr will have to sow together 3 takes of crap to make (most likely) a fairly dull take. Often people complain that the energy dies when a drum take is edited... I don't think that is always the case, but it certainly can happen if you're not careful - especially if you get carried away. A good test is when you come to lay all the other instruments over the drums... often the drums can get so cleaned up that the other instruments just never sit with the drum track as well as they do with a 'real' take. Usually it's too late by then though!
It comes down to what you want to achieve - often that is dictated by your genre. A lot of modern rock related stuff these days requires obscenely tight metronomic style drums, and that's usually the result of severe editing (or programming these days). A lot of the retro rock actually has an intentional messiness that you won't need any fancy protools editing to achieve. Some pop stuff needs a great groove, but also a cleanliness that might be helped by editing.
No two editors are equal either... you have to use your ears and decide whether each edit is going to make things better or worse - and don't forget that lots of the most memorable drum parts in recorded music are from those little 'errors' that add life to a track. No-one will remember the drum pattern edited to perfection, but that little mis-hit snare in a funny place might be perfect.
My personal view, especially here in NZ where we don't have the money so sit in a studio for months to get perfect drum takes is to "do whatever it takes". Seriously, if you start with a good base, and use good gudgement with your edits, no-one should be able to even tell, and you'll be a hell of a lot closer to a 'proffesional' sort of production. It's certainly one of the tools that bedroom producers can use to get a head start when you can't afford a session drummer...
I say all this stuff as if I actually know what I'm talking about - but I'm just babbling some stuff as I see it, don't take anything here as authoritative by any means!
It's my bedtime.
Good night all.
Acutally I'll add one more thing just for fun. That last post wasn't very practical... so here's something off the top of my head for how to make the most of your money.
I do a lot of home recording... I have a modest setup with a few good mics and preamps, probably not far off what a lot of bands/artists have that are into recording good demos these days. One area that I (and many others that I notice) have trouble with is getting true radio-class drum sounds. I can get cool sounds... but I'd class them as 'character sounds' rather than seriously usable radio worthy sounds. It's tough without some pretty good gear to get that great sound (unless you get into sampled/sequenced drums which are becoming a viable option for all genres... but that's another post I can't be bothered writing tonight :-)
I know a lot of people that can get radio quality stuff as far as most other sounds go, but not for drums, and this is where the opportunity is. A great set of drums captured well in a good studio can be a worthwhile investment IF you can get a respectable sound with your other instruments. It is a trend happening everywhere (NZ and o.seas) that the fancy studios are getting used SOLELY for recording drums.... and the engineers are getting bored shitless as all they do day in and day out is listen to drum takes! But yeah, my point is I guess that it's starting to be a viable way to go.
And while I think of it.... vocals.
most people in a home studio can get some nice vocal sounds... but don't take nearly enough care with getting really strong vocal takes. Just make sure you spend a good amount of effort getting really good character, pitching and concistancy (unless your song requires the opposite) - so many poeple seem to just short cut the vocal recording process in home/bedroom studios. Seems odd because for 95% of the stuff that get's to the airwaves, the vocal carries the whole song.
I guess that what happens is that in a studio you're more likely to work with a producer, whereas in a home studio you're most likely to do it yourself, and that's often what is missing in home recordings... the quality of home studio sound these days can be really good with what's available to us for bugger all $$$, but the fact that the songs aren't getting a producer's input (when often that would have been really helpful) is what lets things down.
Holy crap batman... my typo meter has just gone off the scale!
Yeah... long day. Not intending to bump this post... just kinda funny.
Please excuse the typos. I didn't actually do them on purpose, even though it might look that way because there are so many.
They do kind of add character I suppose.
Ok... I don't really know why I started to reply to this post because it's such a huge unanswerable question... but hey, it's your lucky day :-) stream-of-consciousness off the top of my head crap to follow....
I'd say the fundamental things are (sort of in order of importance) are: The song, the performance, the 'gear/studio'.
Some songs just don't need a producer. Some songs don't need fancy sound and expensive gear. Some songs just won't work unless they have all of the above.... etc. The same goes for bands. Some need a lot of producing... some don't... some will just sond bland and crap if they get produced in a way that doesn't work with what the band is trying to achieve. Some bands will sound great in a bedroom and stupid in York St. Some songs will really only come to life when you get that exquisate vintage mic collection in the high price studio and the fancy-pants engineer to position the mic 'just so' and twiddle the million dollar knobs.
Darcy Clay had his 4 track recordings all over NZ airwaves... I know he's the exception, but also a good example of a song/artist that didn't require 'outside' production in any sense - Darcy was able to put together something in his bedroom that would have the spark that made people want to listen to it. In fact I hate to think what might have happened if Jesus I Was Evil had been produced... which brings me to:
I've seen a situation where a friend of mine won a national competition a few years back and as a 'prize' had his song recorded (demolished) by a notable producer... He had a really cool mellow acoustic-guitar driven song that got transformed into an overblown, stupid sounding, and 'produced' track. Needless to say it didn't exactly storm the charts. Simply the wrong producer for the job.
Some bands, even with a great song, need a producer just to get the performance out of the artist. A song played poorly, even a great song, can really be hindered. Some bands aren't in need of this at all... and also, some producers don't do this at all. That the mystery... if you don't get the right producer then you can be in trouble. Some are more focussed on the sonic quality of things... some focussed on the song/arrangement... some on the performance and the groove... or usually some balance of all these things. But it is important to get a producer that 'balances' the skills of the artist. If the artist is a shit-hot player that can band out a wicked performance in a take or two, and they have a killer song, then you need a producer that is closer to an engineer - able to capture the performace and make it the best it can be sonically. If you have a great song but you're not the best player, then a producer that can work with you to inspire or somehow get a great performance is perhaps the best way to go.
All I can really say is that you have to look at the song, and the artist and question what would be the most valuable investment. If you think that you'll have trouble getting the vocal track nailed then maybe a good producer that can really bring the best out of artist would be the best bet. If you need that killer polished drum sound then a good studio and good mics are a good start (actually a good drummer is a good place to start... and then well thought out drum parts... and then good sounding drums... and then well tuned drums... and then... maybe then... the studio comes into play).
Being in a fancy studio can be a bit of an... ummmm... what's the word? Double edged sword or something. All the nice gear is great... but if you don't feel relaxed then it can all turn to shit as you realised how much money each messed up take is costing you. But on the other hand, a good producer and/or engineer should be making sure the vibe is really relaxed and doing whatever it takes to get the artist to perform killer stuff.
As others have just said though... you need to have total confidence in the song first and foremost. If the song isn't there then write another one... 'cos it really isn't worth the $$$ and effort to make something out of nothing. I hear a lot of well recorded crap, but that's all it is. Well recorded crap. Ultimately it goes nowhere, even though a producers name or a studio nake might make it a little easier to get an initial playing of the song by a PD or whoever, in the long run everyone is just after a song that grabs them. It's easy to get caught up in getting the best kick drum sound or whatever... but that means nothing with out having a solid song for that kick drum to help drive. In fact... sometimes what is technically good/nice/killer production can actually undo the charm of a song. Funny how it all works eh?
Oh well... this was a pretty meandering meaningless post. I don't know if I really answered your question... hope it had some entertainment value or something.
Have fun,
Dylan
P.s. no-one take this seriously please.
these are unused, brand new heads, left over from a recording project:
Ambassador 10", 12", 14", 16":
http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=6739404
Pinstripe 13", 15", 18":
http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=6739446
Coated Ambassador 10":
http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=6739504
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Had a listen to the samples on the zildjian website and the pitch of the A's seems way closer than the customs.
Cheers Tom - you're a legend!
Cracker! - Thanks heaps for that Tom, hugely appreciated! I reckon the hi-hat sounds on TGE are absolutely primo, not harsh or in your face, yet nasty and aggressive and have a really distinctive tone that lets you hear all your dynamics.
Now I've just got to find myself a pair of Mastersounds... and learn to hit them like a real man.
The hats on Cave-In's new album sound really similar to the TGE ones too... really nice.
Hi everybody...
Does anyone know what kind of Hi-hats were used on Shihad's The General Electric album, particularly on "Wait and see"?
I think Tom was still playing Paiste back then... but that often doesn't mean much in the studio...
Anyone know?
Yeah - they most definitely are based in Melbourne nowadays. i've managed to get hold of them after a bit of detective works. They're not easy chaps to track down. Try doing a google search for "product" and you'll know what I mean...
Thanks for yur help soph_ie
27 March @ Altitude, Hamilton.
A good night of rock all up. Altitude is definitely the venue in Hamilton
for this sort of stuff, and while it wasn't exactly crammed full, it was a
respectible little crowd. Pity that the whole thing had to run to a
Hamilton-Weeknight timetable... which meant a pretty early night, and a
fairly sedate and sober crowd. Hardly the bands' fault though. On with the show:
STADIUM
What was good:
Songs. They kick ass and make me jealous as a song-writer. The arrangements are great and seem tailored for a thumping live show. As they say... when it comes down to it, what makes a band is the songs. Their songs had a depth that the other bands didn't have... doesn't make too much difference at a big messy rock show, but it did make for something a bit more interesting than usual.
Sound. They had the punchiest and tightest sound of the night. It made Bolbox Rex seem a little bit messy and sonically weaker when they first came on...
What was not-so-good:
The new drummer was rushing in places. He pulled off the complexity with no trouble... playing some beats that just made my brain hurt, but could work more on the consistency of tempo. He played solidly enough, and nailed the patterns, but could do with a little bit more Tom Larkin in his approach.
A few moments in the set where the band is obviously not 100% confident of whether they're going to nail the next tricky bit - resulting in some visible hesitancy at times. Probably attributable to the drummer not being with the band for long, and I'm sure will vanish as the band solidifies.
BOLBOX REX
I think I now agree with whoever it was that said that these guys could well be the next big thing in NZ rock. I wasn't convinced before... but now I am. Their sound is current, their show is tight and entertaining, they seem pretty switched on as far as realising what the industry wants, and they dish it up with fries. And they put stickers on the urinal - always a mark of a great band. Some good Mock'n'Roll.
What was good:
Some cracker songs. Great harmonies that lift up every chorus. Basically it was enough to make me want to buy the CD when it comes out. Perhaps not the 'deepest' songs, but they go straight into your brain and lock themselves in. I couldn't get to sleep for an hour while I tried to get rid of one of their songs from my head.
Great performance and stage show. Looking around the bar, everyone was smiling. They're obviously going for the funny-guy angle, and it works. They kept the momentum through the whole set which a lot of NZ bands have trouble with. They managed to get away with saying "rectum" quite a bit too...
Musicianship was top-notch, nothing to fault. If it was a race, the winner
on the day would have to be their drummer. Apart from the fact that he looks a bit too much like one of the actors from Scream, he is a machine. Simple as that. Every musician in the building seemed to agree too... apart from Dave from Stylus who was probably just praying that his drumkit would survive the set.
What was not-so-good:
There were a couple of pop-punk-ish songs in the set that seemed a little bit out of place, and were somehow a bit weaker or less convincing than the rock stuff. Only a matter of taste really... and I love Nik Kershaw... so I should really shut up.
The stage show, while bloody entertaining, was perhaps bordering on being a bit too 'mock'. The mock-rock-moves and attitude are fun to start with, but could perhaps a bit thin after a while. I don't think this country (or the rest of the world) needs another Rubicon. Maybe it's just my short attention span... I dunno... blink 182 seem to pull that sort of thing off just fine... so maybe another moot point.
STYLUS
I didn't see them play but they were apparently good. I've seen them a
number of times and they always put on a good show. Great front man, cool tunes. Pity I missed them. Apologies.
Hiya gals and guys. I need to contact the ex-NZ band called 'PRODUCT'. They were Tauranga based, then moved to Welly, then to Melbourne. I need to contact them about doing some shows over there in the very near future.
Does anyone have a current email address for the band??
Thanks heaps,
M
Tuesday has come and gone. So what's the meaning of life??? I've been trying for ages to figure it out, and now you can tell me on this forum!
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