//I read a couple of US blogs and *noone* is defending the behaviour of soldiers in Iraqi prisons. From what I've seen, most US citizens are as horrified as the rest of the world.

Maybe noone is defending it, but some people are trying to justify what the soldiers did, because the soldiers lives are under constant threat, Saddam would have done worse, etcetera etcetera.

Senator Inhofe is a clownboat.

//Saddam would have done worse,

That's the one I've seen, but I think it's more a knee-jerk reaction to the (real or anticipated) anti-yank backlash, and goes hand in hand with "at least we're trying to put it right".

I imagine a lot of anti-war protesters are using the "I told you so" line right now. I hate the way the US went about the war in the first place, I don't think it should ever have happened, but in hindsight, I think it's a good thing that Saddam is out of power. I don't think this is an issue that the anti-war protesters can use to back up their own stance retrospectively, nor is it particularly helpful to try and do so anyway.

c'mon Heather ... US are not a Brothers and Sisters of Charity Association ... we know their "experience" ... so, pls what a shame ... those who are really "tired" of "extremists" are the people who were killed in a non-sense war... and in the Saddam dictatorship too... And we also know how US have been controling dictatorships in South America (another shame), so, why couldnt they do the same in Iraq? I cant believe their secret services couldnt do it better if they wanted to "erase" Saddam. There are NO excuses...

Have a look in the US Military Budget
==FUTURE YEAR MILITARY BUDGET AUTHORITY (Function 050)
FY 2002 $350.8 billion
FY 2003 $396.1 billion
FY 2004 $405.0 billion
FY 2005 $426.2 billion
FY 2006 $447.5 billion
FY 2007 $469.6 billion

...and also who is controlling oil in Iraq now ...
... and who appears in this pic ... http://www.faculty.sbc.edu/gdenn/rumsfeld_hussein.jpg
... and many many many arguments against US policy and Irak War ....

I have no problems with people from US, but US governtment foreign policy is an insult to our inteligence... then, why cant I shout out:

Yankees Go Home!!

ps: in my country we also know the non-sense of extremism ...and not only after 3/11 ... and I can see "clear as water" who is "Goliat" in all this story.... saddly, I dont see where is David

Interesting that in today's paper (ODT at least), Rumsfield has stood up and said that maybe the US has, agaibn, picked a war it won't actually win.

// This is the kind of thing that happens during wars

Interesting, isn't it? It's just the release of the photos that have really made everyone get up in arms about it. When you hear of vague 'prisoner rights violations' via text in newspapers or other media, it just doesn't hit home - photographs just pack that much more emotional weight. I heard an Amnesty International rep on National Radio a couple of days ago going on about the fact that they had compiled [x] reports (where x was some number into the hundreds, but I can't remember off the top of my head) of prisoner abuse by coalition forces since the 'end' of hostilities last year. They'd been releasing all these to the media, but it was still flying pretty low in most peoples' radar. Lo and behold, a few photos get out, and bam! Frontpage headlines around the world.

//Explains why trawling the american blogs has become a minefield of trying to avoid grisly Nick Berg photos.

I Condemm what these Al Qaida fucktards done to Young Nick Berg and to be honest i freaked out when that Al Qaida retard pulled the knife from his Jersey but i must say this is what happens to America when they try to fuck with other countrys internal affairs. Again i condenm what these terrorist done but Americas foreign policy of Bigotry, Arrogance and Self-Centering is just asking for these things to happen.

//AMERICA MAKES ME SICK, FUCK AMERICA AND THERE ARROGANT FUCKED UP WAY OF LIFE

what does that mean sam ? - i think you sound as close minded as the so called 'america' object you are bashing... please don't generalise so harshly...it makes me sad

//Except that we don't bully other countris into accepting unfair unfair trading terms.

Actually, I heard somewhere that we do, but (much like every other western country) only countries littler than ourselves, so obviously it doesn't leave much room for bullying.

//You may aswell say FUCK NEW ZEALAND, because our way of life is virtually identicle where it matters.

bullshit!
we don't have 20,000 or even a proportional number of gun deaths a year
we don't have a vast arsenal of nuclear weapons
we don't have en masse crack-cocaine addiction
we don't have the death penalty
we have a completely different governmental position
we have don't have a history of racial discrimination that even scratchs the US's
we haven't ever started a war against a foreign country
our government takes interest in the environment(kyoto)
we have a reasonabally generous beneficiary system
we don't torture people
i can think of at least 10 countries we are 'more identical to' than the US
i mean while you're at it RDOR, why not just say FUCK THE WORLD!

to add it more in-depth to Chris' post.

MAY GOD BLESS NEW ZEALAND. AND HOW LUCKY WE ARE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY SECLUDED FROM ALL THE WORLDS TROUBLES.

No, but we will backhand gun deals to get paid for our butter. Anyone here speak Russian?

Hell no, I throw stuff out their to infuriate Rdor.
Once upon a time their was a large communist nation that imported a few million tonnes of butter from a nation that was small and not aligned to it. Big Red told Little Black "we have no money for you but you may have these excess Kalashnikovs to export to whatever Dictator needs to supress his general population... thus a few hundred blacks where shot but the Dairy Farmers and their Board rejoiced in the knowledge that they had been paid".
If you substitute "foreign aid" with "military hardware" your more often than not on the mark.
Is their a lesson in this story?
What does it tell us about our priorities?
And who was the Nations Secret Service that brokered the deal?

Not so much an eye for an eye, as a recognition that the ends might sometimes justify the means - not necessarily in the particular example you mention, as I took pains to point out.

And what about suicide bombings? Any UN resolutions comdemning those?

whoops, wrong place

//Not like the genocide of the indeginous population, the electric chair, slavery//

Foal you make a whole load of easy generalisations, just what has americas colonial past to do with the war in Iraq? What relevance does that have? And what is wrong with the electric chair? - you might just have to explain instead of stating as if it was some sort of substitute for an argument

Forgot to mention if youve ever heard of a country called Saudi Arabia Rdor? seeing as public beheading is so revolting. Their a big recipetent since 1945 of aid from this country whose name is on the tip o' my tounge... Can you say it?

...again I'm not argueing with you over the war in Iraq, rather with the way you give your 'arguements', It's annoying.

So at no stage do you think the reaction to white people dying is different to the coverage of others deaths? Particulary those deaths from the actions of our beloved exportors of democrocy.
Longbow to draw, maybe for you, as you find the connection obviously tenuous at best.
Many of the army are black, Carlton Ridentour has some good things to say about this and of the far reaching malaise of the Africian-Americian. Sports/Entertainment/Armed Forces... all to do with knowing your place and the hangover of slavery. James Baldwin's got some top books too.... Hideous Dream by Stan Goff [soft skull publishing] may outline the indocrination of racism as a form of discipline in the US Military.[no im not implying that is solely an American tech]. However SSP is notoriously leftwing so tread carefully.
If anyone takes this as anti-american THEIR A FUCKING LOSER. The diatribe is directed at the nonelected govt which continually besmirches Americas reputation. The standers and belifes that Americans hold dear are not adhered to by the Bush regime. This is not to say that Kennedey, Johnson, Nixon, Reagen, and Satan snr were any better.Some action to remove the clowns and killers who make such barbourous actions justafiable to the feebleminded minority would be greatly appriciated.This is Democrocy, kill and maim in my name and your out. Hopefully Labour UK have a sharp knife for Blair.My parents didnt classify themselves as rasicist when Muldoon let the Boks in '81, they got off their fuckin arses and protested, they also voted and shopped accordingly. Rdor why does American soliders and citizens have immunity from ICCJ? Does this not strike you as odd? All ideas, explanations welcome.
Specific reasons to bitch about Bush in Iraq
He himself is a dictatoral killer, POT KETTLE BLACK
His regime is continually in bed/ endorsing/funding terrorist and illigitamate states.
Many of the anti-war mob were the very same people calling for Saddams head in 1981....still its only the Kurds and swamp Arabs eh Rdor?
This cabinet are all profiting directly from this "invasion", as they did selling the gods when Saddams money was too good to turn down;ie the Press dont bother with photos despite the fact their was plenty of gassed babies bodies available.Or is this the face of acceptable Capatilism... Profit first, Principles a remote second.
Violence is unlikely to solve anything, unless you want some phantom terrorists pre-election [check the polls Ashcroft].This is not to say that I consider my belief system set in stone Rdor, as I have yet to have myself or a member of my family falsly imprisiones, tortured, suicide bombed, raped, had my kids walk on landmines, etc. Its possible that when provoked I may re-act in a way I currently think reprehensible/irrational/selfdefeating.
Care too enlighten me with non-annoying and more worthy reasons to be against the continuing Imperalist march of the USA?
Electric Chair? Of course its a fact, i believe it their for it is.... what else can I say , you believe something it becomes true, some people believe in trickledown economics and evolution, clearly asmuch fairytales as anything the Bros Grimm designed, yet zealots, believers, worshippers abound. Thier choice, their loss/gain.
Hopefully finally, as ive posted before the onus is on us to inform, eludicate and pontificate not on our designated eniemes like Hussien, Kim JongII, Chavez, Castro etal but on the crimes we and our traditional allies are enacting for our supposed benifit. If 250 million Americans get upset that theirs some clown in Chch asking for the standerds they hold sacrasant to be held also to their actions, then i trust their rage will be directed where it should, at their Elected Representitives.
Has your depression subsided? The Koran always lifts my spirit, you might want to try it.
Eludicate your rational behind why this war is unjust, i'd like to know the reasons you think "Bush is a Facist" and how you catorigize importance. Please should be in their too sorry.
Take care and chinup, if youve gottime to waste on my baiting things cant be too bad.

Logical arguments against the war in Iraq have are so well understood that I don't feel the need to type them all out here. What bothers me about your posts is that you disguise one argument with another ie The present U.S administrations invlolvement in Iraq thinly veils an all out disdain for 'western civilisation'. Apparently because we in the west drive cars, live in suburbs, take part in a largely consumer driven economy, have an average lifespan of 72 instead of 45, and use up plenty of resources in the process, while the rest of the world lives in variouse degrees of poverty - we morally have no right to use military force in countries that don't share such a obscenly high standard of living. Which is actually a fair enough argument if you were honest about it in the first place.

//And what about suicide bombings? Any UN resolutions comdemning those?

I don't know, are there? Google isn't helping.

//Is the bulldozing of homes the crime of the century? There is slavery and actual genocide in Africa that no-one seems to care about.

So you're saying that, because there are worse thing happening in the world, we should just forget this? Are the lives of Israelis more important than Palestinian lives?

Israel is accountable to the UN. It is a member state. Why does it constantly ignore worldwide opinion, as well as international law?

// The present U.S administrations invlolvement in Iraq thinly veils an all out disdain for 'western civilisation'.

it doesn't strike me as a disdain for western civilization,
it's clearly a disdain for the way the west is administered

//Apparently because we in the west drive cars, live in suburbs, take part in a largely consumer driven economy, have an average lifespan of 72 instead of 45, and use up plenty of resources in the process, while the rest of the world lives in variouse degrees of poverty - we morally have no right to use military force in countries that don't share such a obscenly high standard of living.

what a load of crap,
foal has made it quite clear of his respect for human life
and hence his reasoning.

//violence begets violence...

and what does this shit have to do with the war and torture in iraq
you still feel threatened by whose sane?
thought he might take your microwave oven?
thought he might steal your colour TV?

you can drive a lambourghini or you can barely clothe yourself in this season's fig leaf collection, either way you still have no moral right to pull this kind of shit
whatever your economy, income, and anticipated life expectancy,
play the ball not the man...

and the man said 'iraq has WMD'
when he meant to say 'We want full power of Iraqs oil supply'

//Which is actually a fair enough argument if you were honest about it in the first place

//So you're saying that, because there are worse thing happening in the world, we should just forget this? Are the lives of Israelis more important than Palestinian lives?

No. What I'm saying is that criticism must be applied proportionately. It is unfair to vilify the Israelis because of the (sometimes excessive) actions of the IDF, yet excuse suicide bombings as "resistance". It is unfortunate that some homes of innocent Palestinians are destroyed, but that's the sort of thing that happens when the terrorists among you operate in civilian areas, and use innocent-looking houses as centres.

//Israel is accountable to the UN. It is a member state. Why does it constantly ignore worldwide opinion, as well as international law?

As soon as the Palestinian Authority and the Arab states accept Israel's right to exist, then we can start talking about resolutions. There have not been any resolutions condemning suicide bombings. Countries commiting atrocities on a grander scale than Israel (including some of its neighbours) are more or less ignored - some of said countries even have a go at drawing up resolutions against Israel. Plus, Sudan sits on the Human Rights Committee of the UN - do a google search of Sudan.