During a recent discussion with No. 1 Son vis-a-vis Pacifier (the album) I raised the point that perhaps more people would have been more accepting of the album if it had been released by Shihad.
Was the change in name too much for people to accept along with the different production values of the album? I think the album is OK ... not their absolute best work but there are still some good songs on it. I don't think it is as bad as it has been painted by some.
So, what do you think?
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Ha - I was pondering this the other day ...
Ha - I was pondering this the other day actually. I reckon that the Shihad/Pacifier live show is always going to be the Great Leveller. Thus, by attending the Dunners concert and also listening to the new live cd, I can more objectively consider what songs are more in the Shihad 'tradition' while allowing for 'progression'.
At the moment all I've really thought about are the Pacifier 'singles' that were brought out in the live show..
Comfort Me - Live this track sounds a lot more raw; I've always thought of this as one of the band's weaker tracks, and although live it seems a lot less disjointed, it doesn't really flow naturally like all Shihad's real classics do.
Semi-Normal - While not quite as heavy, say, as the REALLY old stuff, what comes across live is that this song is Shihad in its intensity. The 'vibe', although I feel like a wank saying it, is so honest and rockily pissed off that I believe Shihad would (not could) have made this song with no complaints.
Run - Euphemistically, this is a definite 'single song' - I do like it and admire the hookiness and crafted heavy-pop-rock craftsmanship, but I can't visualise this song before Pacifier.
Everything - Quite similar to Run. Again, it's a wee bit chunkier live and it shows good strong mainstream songwriting, but if the artist was Shihad I still feel most would have considered it a departure from the current (at that time) path.
Bullitproof - This song gels a helluva lot more in concert. The Dunedin show won me over - I thought it was the worst song on the cd and couldn't understand why it was a single. But the boys proved me wrong - if Shihad had cranked this live people would have loved it.
Not really sure if I've added to the conversation tho...
listening to the songs live, its ...
listening to the songs live, its obvious that they are not as out there as on the album
live, the songs are what jon originally made the to be, no production backing female vocals or anything like that
they rock
weaker than some of their older material but still strong enough to get any crowd heaving and churning (excuse the pun)
I was watching c4 off and on during ...
I was watching c4 off and on during there top 10 last night... and the host said they maybe changing the name back or something. But then its probably them trying to start a rumour.
Similar to what jimi and jj have said, ...
Similar to what jimi and jj have said, I only really get my faith back after seeing the Pacifier songs live. The album was, admitedly, disappointing as I'd had all the other albums and loved them all, and could see the progression from one to the next. Pacifier was a bit different, and I couldn't quite see the "line" they were following. But as I've said, the live shows reversed that. I think what a lot of people who bagged the album forgot, was that Shihad - and Pacifier - has always been a live band. The Live album is now to me a (nearly) tangible reminder of that, for when I hear a Pacifier song on radio and feel that small bit of disappoinment again.
In regards to your questions, Stu (instead of rambling about my 'faith' etc!) yes, I think that the name change was a large part of people's difficulty in accepting the new production values (as you put it so well.) There was such a negative feeling after the name change that any recording was bound to carry that negativity in part. I don't think that by any means it would be hailed as 'killjoy standard' if 'shihad' had released it, but there is less 'stigma' in a band eveolving than in a band who is deemed to have changed simply for commercial reasons, which is so-oft the case quoted the Pacifier.
Eh, anyway I hope that makes a little sense...excuse any typos and confusing sentances; I can't see what I'm typing.
i've run out of things to say about ...
i've run out of things to say about this band.
Let it be known: On Wednesday ...
Let it be known:
On Wednesday January 28th 2004, at exactly 2:14 PM Manamana ran out of things to say about Shihad.
I am now personally worried for the safety of Aucklanders.
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i'm confused and a little scared now......
i'm confused and a little scared now...
you know, there is a fairly encouraging ...
you know, there is a fairly encouraging and not exactly wildly unlikely rumour floating around that malcolm welsford and shihad may potentially be considering working together again in the studio ...
surely you've got something to say about that, young manamana?
Let it be known: That on May18-19, ...
Let it be known:
That on May18-19, 2002 Dusty threw the mother of all house parties.
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rumours eh...
rumours eh
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ok so you're on top of that one ...
ok so you're on top of that one eh?
i wish i could offer you more encouragement mister run out of things to say :)
i'm just going to spread this rumor as ...
i'm just going to spread this rumor as much as i can. by the time i'm finished the whole country will be expecting it to happen so the band will have no option but to relent to a fully analog production made in nz.
i don't know shit man,i suppose it will come down to what kinda album they want to make aye.
i like their old stuff better than their new stuff.
it really isn't much of a rumour dude. ...
it really isn't much of a rumour dude. shit may change, but desire is for NZ (certain orkers studio).
I recommend stebbings....
I recommend stebbings.
wow those links are awesome...i really ...
wow those links are awesome...i really hope i get invited to one of Dusty's parties....those dudes look like they really know how to cut loooooose!
...ummmm and I LOVE some Shihad songs(like fckn love them MAN!) and think some Shihad songs suck....I think pretty much every pacifier song is below par...that is my verdict. But hey lots of other people love it so all power to them...and mayby the next album will be better....I really liked some of general electric.
//Was the change in name too much for ...
//Was the change in name too much for people to accept along with the different production values of the album?
YES
// there are still some good songs on it.
YES
//I don't think it is as bad as it has been painted by some.
YES
Glad someone finally said it, Stu.
I had an excellent time listening to the album for several long weeks before it came out, and thoroughly enjoyed it - free from hype. Much negative press after it was released definitely tainted the songs for me personally. A point that I have hesitated to share for a long time, but keep coming back to.
//A point that I have hesitated to ...
//A point that I have hesitated to share for a long time
Why?
I think it may be against the Nick ...
I think it may be against the Nick Hornby and John Saffron school of thought on music cred. Rule 306: Never boast of pre-release access. or yee run risk of thy never getting said pre-releases for next one. ;)
Actually I only raised it because it really was for me a buring experience of how affected NZ music is right now. Out of all the albums that came out around then, what a one to listen to in 'isolation', form an personal opinion of, and then witness the hype devolve in public. Sadly I feel NZM had a part in that.
I really could not believe how hard a time it got from some quarters. Especially considering the crap that was released by others at the time and escaped criticism almost entirely untouched.
I tend to ask the detractors what albums they rated in the same time period, and quietly compare them to the Pacifier release. Most times, the detractors are being very 'lenient' on some mediocre releases, and yet over-bearingly hard-arse on this one. Try it, its fun!
the thing though is shihad have such ...
the thing though is shihad have such high expectations of them
right or wrong
they've raised their own standard
and if its seen to be lowered
well then...
we've seen what happens
also youhave to factor in the "anit-shihad" effect, i have seen that in action before...
Are you being sarcastic? Its hard to ...
Are you being sarcastic? Its hard to tell.
I think your post typifies the misconceptions perfectly.
Gotcha on the music cred thing. But ...
Gotcha on the music cred thing.
But I don't see why you held your tongue post-release. Maybe you did say something at the time and I don't remember, but lead the way for the optimists man.....
the music cred thing was sposed to be a ...
the music cred thing was sposed to be a joke.
i said enough at the time.
If anyone is a classic original fan ...
If anyone is a classic original fan then it wouldnt matter. Sometimes a name change is good & in their perspective taking themselves to a world level definitely had a need for change during all this terrosism stuff. Shihad was a really cool name & I guess if you were dedicated to the content of their group then you would definitely still support them all the way..I commend them for being absolutely considerate to the world despite the critical side of having a name change in the first place.
They didn't make the album ...
They didn't make the album exclusivelyfor 'classic original fans'. Do you ever have anything relevant to bring to a discussion? Or do you just like people to see your log -in name a lot?
// I commend them for being absolutely ...
// I commend them for being absolutely considerate to the world
the USA isn't the world.
They'd like to think so. Obviously ...
They'd like to think so. Obviously SOME people can't see through it all.
So if they didn't make it for classic ...
So if they didn't make it for classic original fans then they must be making it for people who hate them right?? Of course they make music for fans, thats what every artists intention is!!!
Also, the world isn't just America, its us, its other countries..considerate to make it to the top of course & if they wanted to make it big in the country that takes everything to the top then a name change would of been highly expected..how insensitive can you be? Dont you even care about the offence that will be taken by anyone who is well aware & against all these terrorists things!!
//Do you ever have anything relevant to ...
//Do you ever have anything relevant to bring to a discussion? Or do you just like people to see your log -in name a lot?
lcajmo has been an nzm member for under 100 days and has posted 1332 (and counting) times.. thats an average of over 13 posts a day ...
none of which are worth reading
Ok, so if you're not a 'classic ...
Ok, so if you're not a 'classic original fan', or a 'hater', you're nothing? Sorry, I didn't realise that there was no such thing as a 'new market or demographic'.
And I won't get into the politics that your playing at with the name change and 'terrorism' because it'll go way over your head and you look like such a fool in my eyes already it would be painful to read your reply.
can't we all just get along?...
can't we all just get along?
// So if they didn't make it for ...
// So if they didn't make it for classic original fans then they must be making it for people who hate them right?? Of course they make music for fans, thats what every artists intention is!!!
If you just meant fans, why did you write "classic" and "original" in front of it? Or would I be veridical classy clearer if I put superb useless adjectives in front of all my superfluous blue non-sentimental nouns?
Also, some artists make music for themselves, or for religious purposes, not their dysenterric shagadelic fans.
I was going to reply to the rest of your stuff, but it seems to me that your verbal talents are wasted in music. You should work as a PR person for a politician. In fact, I think Tony Blair might be needing a new one soon.
// can't we all just get ...
// can't we all just get along?
With most things, yes.
Great idea Aka! Lca, when you want ...
Great idea Aka!
Lca, when you want to reply to ANYTHING, (artists, bar or any other forum,) reply to it in the topic linked below. Make sure your replies are really long and detailed and with bad punctuation.
:D :-) {:,)
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//lcajmo has been an nzm member for ...
//lcajmo has been an nzm member for under 100 days and has posted 1332 (and counting) times.. thats an average of over 13 posts a day ...
Then why the fuck do you read it & reply cos if you were more onto it people you wouldn't care less & create a new topic but then again you all think there is only ONE opinion right?? but theres thousands so expect it!
Also just to bring it to you lightly. If you like a band for who they are & not what their name is then you truly are a fan. Adding adjectives etc is just a form of being more expressive. You know what...WHO GIVES A PHUCK ABOUT TERROSISM ETC ETC..who gives a dam about this particular thread. Dont worry, you dont get it so why bother.
// Dont you even care about the offence ...
// Dont you even care about the offence that will be taken by
// anyone who is well aware & against all these terrorists things!!
I'm well aware & against all 'the terrorist things', and I can't say I took great offence against the Shihad name. It probably would've caused a bit of controversy in the USA, but nothing that wouldn't have blown over (timing was, admittedly, very unfortunate). Some might argue that the publicity would have helped the band - the old 'good or bad, as long as we're in the news' maxim.
Anthrax didn't change their name following that particular scare, and political sensitivity certainly didn't stop Paris from naming his album 'Sonic Jihad' and putting a picture of a plane dive-bombing the White House on the album cover.
And do you think muslims in NZ are outraged against Scribe calling his album 'The Crusader'? Isn't he being a little insensitive in the same way?
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//Also just to bring it to you lightly. ...
//Also just to bring it to you lightly. If you like a band for who they are & not what their name is then you truly are a fan. Adding adjectives etc is just a form of being more expressive. You know what...WHO GIVES A PHUCK ABOUT TERROSISM ETC ETC..who gives a dam about this particular thread. Dont worry, you dont get it so why bother. //
shit maybe
just maybe
some of us actually care about the sound
shit you're so hung up about the name
you keep harping on about it
i'd like to just ignore you
but fuck i don't know when one of your off-tangent posts will pop up
so i do end up reading it
ok rant over
just because shihad made a decision doesn't mean we the public have to agree with them
if we did then that just makes us mindless serfs
shit
jon toogood, tom larkin, phil knight and karl kippenberger are no gods
they're fucking great nice guys
but i have as much right to disagree with them as i do with you
hey i think it was a bad move but i STILL like pacifier
shit you might see being a fan as lapping at the feet of who ever you worship and never crossing their bows
but i see it on a much more level field
they're human they make mistakes
just like you
and yes i judged them harsher because ...
and yes i judged them harsher because of the new name
but by seeing them at their live shows
heard how the songs orginally sounded when they first came up with them
i put a bit more blame on that dang yankee big shot producer ;)
where do you check the stats on ...
where do you check the stats on posting...
i'd like to see mine :)
chronickiwi = topics -32 post s- 706 ...
chronickiwi =
topics -32
post s- 706
which makes you number 41 poster of all time
you find all this stuff under: members> search members
//They seem to be coming out too ...
//They seem to be coming out too mainstream rather than owning their persona as to who they were when they first came out. That was such a bad az song considering how it came out at that time..I still like them but I reckon with all these new cats all around they really should rise to the market & show people who was here first. //
you wrote this in 3 the hard way
this is a bit hypocritical
aren't you a real fan of them???
don't agree with what they did???
apply that to shihad
you obviously don't like what 3 the hard way have done
but you'll give yourself some slack
some of us don't liek what pacifier have done
but you don't give us some slack
follow your own rules
and TRY think about what you say before you write it
I dont worship bands/singers if I like ...
I dont worship bands/singers if I like them..I truly just simply stand back & admire their work.
As for 3 the hard way..i aint a fan extremely of them but I dig what they use to bring out..for you to compare that to this is very different..i do think about what I say before I post obviously thats why I post them cos its the mind that makes up the decision in the end. I honestly didn't mean to cause some EXTRA's to pop up but really just putting down my thoughts. Can I never do that without being attacked in every part. i guess not.
Don't let it get you down, look on the ...
Don't let it get you down, look on the bright side it's all completely personal.
...
[ http://www.undiesupasscrack.com ]
//Can I never do that without being ...
//Can I never do that without being attacked in every part.
Believe it or not lcajmo, you're not being attacked. People are just pointing out the glaring errors in your argument. If you stop reflexively retorting when people disagree with you or complaining that everyone's hating on you, and instead think about the points they're making, then you'll learn stuff - about the topic, and about communicating effectively. If that happens then you won't have as many people pulling you up for saying dumb stuff. :-)
dear lcajmo, If you feel the need to ...
dear lcajmo,
If you feel the need to reply please do so in the following topic.
[ external link ]
//I commend them for being absolutely ...
//I commend them for being absolutely considerate to the world
poo on that.....people died, that is very sad but f*$%$^& me if I'm gonna do anything to be sensitive towards the feelings of America.....how sensitive is the US government when they accidentally kill heaps pof people all the time. Oh wait this isn't a political site...ooops
ummm peace love and respek to the lot of ya
//I dont worship bands/singers if I ...
//I dont worship bands/singers if I like them..I truly just simply stand back & admire their work.
As for 3 the hard way..i aint a fan extremely of them but I dig what they use to bring out..for you to compare that to this is very different..i do think about what I say before I post obviously thats why I post them cos its the mind that makes up the decision in the end. I honestly didn't mean to cause some EXTRA's to pop up but really just putting down my thoughts. Can I never do that without being attacked in every part. i guess not. //
well look at it from my veiw
you're saying im not a fan by not accepting shihads name change
well i am
i just don't agree with that
you like 3 the hard
but you don't like the way they have gone sound wise
but you still like them
i don't agree with the way shihad went
but i accept it and still support them
and i still like them
be a little les black and white and see the grey that i inhabbit
You know what guys..this is new my life ...
You know what guys..this is new my life now so im one of those ones that come up here all the time now & will reply to anything that pleases me..NOT!
Whatever! To be honest I dont even read all the paragraphs unless I see words that appeal to me or if they're short as & look as if it sounds interesting so but I will from now on try & read most of it anyways..what were we talking about anyway? Was it NZ Music or me?
FUCK OFF AND TWIST YOUR UNDIES ...
FUCK OFF AND TWIST YOUR UNDIES SOMEWHERE ELSE MOTHER FUCKERS!
Okay when shit comes to NZ I hope ...
Okay when shit comes to NZ I hope everyone feels the same way - careless to every aspect.
And also if I want to post shit..i'll post it anywhere not with direction.
Pacifier, Shihad.. doesn't matter to me as long as they bring out the same calibre in their music.