It's interesting how people have latched on to the 'realities of...' discussion, with no intent of examining the words 'market research' and what they mean to monkeypuzzle- why are people just using the term at face value to fuel their own POV on this? You could look a little deeper under the surface and get something real out of this discussion. I have to say that calling monkeypuzzle a sell-out hardly enders me to anyone's POV. And I agree with angeldustnz- like I said somewhere before- musicians generally don't enjoy the subject of money and business. But a musician should be able to feel like they can broach the topic without facing this sort of completely irrational backlash, otherwise you might as well rename threads like these "(insert NZMer here) says money is everything," which is really what this has become. I mean, isn't this just rediculous?
I think dragstrip said something interesting earlier on:"...this is a man that is owed a lot of money by music before he has formed his first real band. And it is this that colours his opinions (and possibly those of other contributors to this thread) more than anything else."
This is about looking at music as either 'your debt' or 'your income' right? And the argument was that this link speaks to the credibilty of the art produced, right?
So we can pressume from this that a lot of people believe that the best music is always produced when nothing is financially at stake.
What do you think of this? I think it's an imaginary utopia, created where recording gear, musical instruments, food, water, shelter etc are FREE, and only then can we call the music 'pure'. And anyone who does not live in this Utopia is a sellout.
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Sorry, just letting off steam... I just ...
Sorry, just letting off steam... I just don't understand why the topic has to degenerate from 'practical advice/tips' to having to defend accusations of 'sellout' or questions of artistic integrity. It's like there's some kind of veto against sharing this sort of information without forfeiting your credibility card, and it's just oh sooooo much bollocks I don't know where to start. Anyway sorry if this rubs anyone the wrong way, it's just off the top of my head.
present day malaise me thinks. rather ...
present day malaise me thinks. rather than argue the point, name calling and be-litteling is in vouge. As I put in my post I dont think mp and deputy goals / vision/ aim is particulary inspiring or realistic, what I respect them for is their articulation and honesty in saying " what they want, are aiming for". You then choose to participate or not, should be simple really...And good luck to them too, any musos that organizied should be getting plenty of work, and attracting fellow musicians who share the same drive.
I can't speak for Monkey Puzzle as ...
I can't speak for Monkey Puzzle as I've never met him or spoken to him, nor have I heard his music, but for the record, my musical aims are not to just pander to the market in order to get somewhere in the industry, otherwise I could easily have been ripping off bands like Blink 182 or the Datsuns or whatever happens to be the current trend, years ago. Though I have an ambition to make a career in music, what I care most about is making good music.
I've invested all this time and money into music because I love it more than anything, and I want to be as skilled as possible at writing songs, arranging them, recording them and producing them, before I release an EP or album or single of my own work.
I was going to just stop posting and visiting this site altogether for a while - the past few days have felt like an attack on me personally, rather than just my views, but manamana and the gang can go and get fucked.
To you personally, manamana : I could give a shit that you have friends in a band - sorry pal but you don't know shit about what it is to write songs and be a musician, and belittling me isn't going to make a bit of difference to the end result. You've obviously taken a dislike to me, made some decision about what I'm like by (incorrectly) interpreting what you read between the lines of what I have written, but I think if you'd ever had the chance to meet me and talk to me about music, you wouldn't feel the way you do. No doubt you'll post some clever remark in answer to this, but try and be a bigger man than that for once and just let this shit drop here. I hope some day we get a chance to meet face to face, I really do.
As for dragstrip, his idea that because I have a sizeable debt to pay off I will inevitably compromise my creative integrity is completely wrong. I'm sorry that you feel that way, Dave, but I guess you'll just have to wait and see and make the judgement for yourself when I release something, which all going to plan will happen this year.
//sorry pal but you don't know shit ...
//sorry pal but you don't know shit about what it is to write songs and be a musician,
sorry but even if you say this twice it still doesn't make your opinion anymore important than mine.
stop getting so upset about things man
////sorry pal but you don't know shit ...
////sorry pal but you don't know shit about what it is to write songs and be a musician,
I hate this kind of attitude. I think that opinions about music given by people who are not musicians are by far more important than those given by musicians. The reason being that non-musicians don't tend to get caught up in all the whiney preciousness that musicians seem so preoccupied with.
// I hate this kind of attitude. I ...
// I hate this kind of attitude. I think that opinions about music given by people who are not musicians are by far more important than those given by musicians.
I'm not talking about manamana's thoughts on music itself, rather making music, something which he has said he knows very little about. I have agreed previously that as a listener, manamana's view on what is good and what is not is equally valid, but in terms of making music, I don't think he is really qualified to be bandying about accusations about why I make music, and how the quality of the music will be effected by my being ambitious. Part of that ambition is to make good, creative, original music, something which I've tried, frustratingly, to explain in previous posts, but it seems the artistic police just won't allow that someone could be both ambitious and genuinely want to make good music.
It really pisses me off that everybody takes these little quotes out of context and then attacks arguments based on these tiny fragments.
Whatever, I'm completely over this shit. I admire the patience of foetusboy and the few others who have actually bothered to consider both points of view, but I've had enough of it. Getting judged by people who I've never met, who don't know me or my work at all, is just bullshit.
//Getting judged by people who I've ...
//Getting judged by people who I've never met, who don't know me or my work at all, is just bullshit.
C'mon. You're a musician, you get up on stage, you release a record, you get judged by people you've never met. That is what musicians (and all artists/entertainers) do. Get over yourself.
I absolutely agree. I'm saying, he ...
I absolutely agree.
I'm saying, he hasn't ever heard my music, seen me on stage, etc. On the day that he does, I invite him, and everyone else, to judge for all they're worth, I really do. Of course that's the reality of being a musician. But having the quality of my music judged before it's actually been heard seems to me to be a little unfair.
i don't care what kind of music you ...
i don't care what kind of music you make, and i certainly do not have to hear it to know that if fame and money are a motive for doing it that it will be shit.
fuck you i believe that sooky bubba.
you're right it is an imaginary ...
you're right it is an imaginary utopia
but when monkey puzzle started a thread with that holier than thou six point mandate
i couldn't help but take exception to any point he made
(except selling 50 cd's in one night)
it didn't sound like a discussion
it sounded like moses with his bits of stone addressing idol worshippers
Agreed. I think perhaps it's not that ...
Agreed. I think perhaps it's not that a musician 'can't broach the topic', it's more that if you want to start a 'discussion' there are better ways to kick it off. But common sense would suggest mp would only post what was working for him- why is our reaction automatically defensive ('sellout') as opposed to 'that's great- here's what works for me'... I think anything antagonistic about the way this thread was started was blown away by the way the thread continued. I wish it didn't have to work that way.
Still, nothing like a few insults and accusations to make you re-think why you do what you do, huh? I'm serious- whatever your stance on this thing, doesn't it make you look at your POV a bit harder, make you more determined, fire you up- it's great!
Foetusboy. hey. I was considering ...
Foetusboy. hey.
I was considering reading this other forum - but decided against it - thought might go check out monkey puzzles tips. They sound useful.
I think most people here associate money with bad music. Personal taste i think. To many angsty people.
I'm going to uni this year. To study popular music in society and how i can make it to the top.
I want to be at the top of my craft. I want the opportunity to work alongside my idols. Pavarotti, Celine Dion - the top in the industry. But perhaps between here and there i need to do covers, play in bands, write music that is "people-friendly" to achieve my ultimate dream. I want to do well. I don't want to be like my mum and dad who nearing retirement age are still paying off a huge mortgage cos of mistakes they've made. One day i want a nice house, and to be able to help my kids through university instead of having them stress out like i am about how i'm going to do uni and pay off my bills.
Money is what supports us through life, and i plan on a good life. I want to take my kids to disneyland, europe - expand their horizons, and seeing as money doesn't just grow on trees, i need to work for it. And if i can work in an industry doing what i love the most (singing) and live on that, then why shouldn't i? Just cos i enjoy singing and i get paid for it - am i a sell out?
Anyway, i just wanted to support you (feotusboy) in what you're saying.
People have two options. Either make money or don't - but don't resent those that can make money from what they love. Why shouldn't you get paid for what you love to do? It's still a business. Money still needs to change hands unless they want to be on the dole forever.
Congrats to everyone who has made it.
read the other topic nz muso...
read the other topic nz muso
I would reccommend reading it too- ...
I would reccommend reading it too- everyone on the thread was speaking about what matters most to them- you'll see some interesting points of view.
Nz muso - you should read them. Take on ...
Nz muso - you should read them. Take on board some of the good points, ignore the rest.
I started posting some stuff but then as I reading through some of the replies and related threads I realised that this was getting bigger than Ben Hur!!!!!!
Some people are going to dig it, some aren't, just the same as some see the glass is half empty, or half full.
Everyone has a point of view, and it's how you deal with these various points of view that counts. Some will spit vitriol back, some will just let their music do the talking, etc.
I actually thought the original thread was really about ideas of how to go about surviving in the music business and may be how to make a living out of it, but I'm pretty sure it's gone a further than that.
I just think people need to take a chill pill.
It was totally about that. An exchange ...
It was totally about that. An exchange of ideas on how to survive in the crazy old music industry.