It was predictable that someone would take that comment out of context. "Business" seems to be a dirty word for musicians, but the idealogical concept that "if we just keep playing, and getting better, someone's going to find out about us and sign us and then we won't have to worry about money anymore!" is just naive.

The originality of the music itself doesn't enter into it. Look at the bands on Arch Hill records (Fang and Pine particularly) : They run a studio, go to overseas conferences, make videos in New York with top directors, release compilations, tour nationally, release many (about eight?) different bands' albums and EPs. Do you think that this stuff happens by accident? I don't know what you think of the music, but you would have to agree it's not in the least bit mainstream. Running your band like a business, with band members as "partners", might seem distasteful at first, but get past the obvious cliches of what being part of a business is, and the benefits become self-evident. None of us are doing music for the money, and those of us who are, are too inexperienced to have come to the realisation that there isn't any.

My suggestion, and I'm sure there'll be some strong feelings on both sides of the coin about this, is get the fuck out of NZ as soon as you have a band you know has what it takes. The general consensus from bands like Shihad and Fur Patrol seems to be that nobody gives a shit that you were popular in NZ, you have to rebuild your reputation in the bigger territories (Australia, UK, US) for people to sit up and take notice. It seems that every big NZ band has done this or is doing it now. You can always come back to NZ (as the Datsuns did) triumphant, with an instant following gauranteed, instead of grinding away at every bar between Auckland and Invercargill, trying to make the indfferent locals give a shit.

Also, talk to an accountant, have him/her advise you on howe to set the business up and register it with IRD, and set up the necessary structures for keeping track of tax, writing off expenses (strings, sticks, repairs, new equipment, CDs, clothes, a portion of your bedroom used for business purposes) etc. It might cost $200, but you will alomst certainly get this money and more back in your tax return, and you will have an excellent record of all your business dealings for the year.

No.

i get what your saying, if your music is 'good' you'll get noticed either way, it's easy enough to get gigs in auckland (you gota get off your ass and ask around). I'm a muso, i have no business sense at all, i wouldn't have a clue.. but in the end of the day it's something ya should do unfortunately, if your getting paid gigs and then IRD or whatever ask the bar who this $4 odd hundred dollars are going to every week and they point the finger at you, they could screw you. it sux but it's reality..

you've got the wrong end of the stick there slippery, what i'm refering to is market research and it is vital for any business to understand what, where and who their market is, this thread isn't supposed to be a recipe for creating the ultimate pop band, it was more aimed at people who have already discovered their own unique sound and voice and want to take it further than their bedroom, at some point business definitly becomes involved and if you haven't done your homework you'll fail or get ripped off.

//if you are constantly second guessing what your supposed audience wants from you you will never do anything interesting or original.

Pardon me if I read your post incorrectly Monkey Puzzle, but I have this to say to Slippery:
I did not read, at any stage, MP say "compromise your music to make money!" Where does Zed come into this? I think what MP has said is bloody good sense and would enable a reasonably established band to take their music further (and I don't mean Commercial Radio further) The Arch Hill example was a good one.

Sorry, just

and a sponsorship with lion red

//So when are you guys next playing Indigo?
Nice burn. :)

Fair call though, i'll be the first to admit my temper gets the better of me sometimes, but i'd also like to point out that I know full well how much damage that same temper has done to our reputation from time to time, but basically someone has to say the things that no one else will no matter who it pisses off.

oooooh! Fight! Smash him!

because it would have been empty. ba da pish!

//Not that nice, nice guy.
No... not nice. I appreciated it from a comic timing point of view.

I can definately appreciate Monkey Puzzles position... they have been going for a long time now and seem to be doing pretty good. I heard something of a rediency at a resort somewhere, right? Now THAT sounds like fun.

nah it's not really it was just me on a bad day letting my temper run my brain, Bi-Polar Disorder can be so much fun sometimes.

I wish I knew the story behind this whole Indigo thing - it sounds freakin good.

true people do worry too much about making it big, i'm just talking about making it WORK, it doesn't matter how big you are, if your getting paid and you want that situation to continue, or if your not getting paid and you want to, then treat it like a business.

Heather, as usual your answer is balanced and fair, I wish you were MY mum.

Lack commitment and lose sight of the goal! Word. Never a truer phrase uttered. I would add that many goals set are not smart or realistic enough.

As for never having friends as your manager, we DID appoint a friend as our manager and it has been the single smartest thing we ever did as this person has kicked our (naked?) arses into shape in a business context.

word...

thats the best thing I've read in one of 'these' threads yet ever

cher

you missed it man.

Having said the above, I'd also add that if you go anywhere near a situation that involves money then do put your business cap on, particularly when in a band rather than just doing your thing solo. The bod from Monkey Puzzle has given some very sound suggestions regarding that.

Certainly, if your dream is to never make it big, to just have some fun playing a few gigs around the pubs and bars in your town, have a few laughs and call it a day, so be it. That's not my dream.

I believe if you "presume" you'll never make it big, that is always going to be your reality. It suits me for there to be plenty of people who presume they will never get anywhere. If everybody truly wanted to make it in music and they all put the necessary groundwork in, then it would be a lot harder to make it than it is now. The Datsuns, admittedly the best case scenario, did not presume they wouldn't make it. They took out a loan for (as I understand it) $30,000, and put everything on the line. By taking out that much money (quite a bit for four boys from Cambridge) they were presuming that they WOULD make it.

Whatever Zed and the Feelers et al priorities are, they are not mine. I would not play/record any style of music to be famous. Nor would I play/record any style of music to be rich. I want a career in music, playing songs that I have written, that I care about. If I can make a career playing concerts and selling albums of my own music, I will feel that I've made it. Anything else is a bonus.

I presume I will make it. I don't care what the older musicians who didn't quite make it think - I've had hundreds of people (musicians and otherwise) tell me that there is no money in music, that I should have a fall-back career, that it's a nice hobby but that's all it is,and in spite of all the naysayers, I've kept pursuing my dream.

To those who haven't yet given up on making it in music, good luck to you, and I'll see you at the NZ music awards, circa 2006.

"They were good golfers, no doubt about that, all of them. But keeping their game up to it made them less enjoyable to play with, somehow.....it was competition they were into now, not golf."
Barry Crump-Shorty

//Some people play golf as a hobby...

That's a really good analogy.