"save the planet and kill urself!" hands manamana some hanging ropes :P

three are left, it's just that two of the three are somewhere else.

// Completely self-trained musicians are shit musicians 9 times out of 10. At best, they will take two or three times as long to get to the same standard as a "good" privately taught musician.

you are so bloody condescending for someone we have never heard of.

Well, The Deputy. I learned myself with no training. I never really wanted to be good... I just wanted to play. And now I play like me.
I think that if you are trying for good technique, then go for it - get trained and shred away, but I myself tend to listen to how things sound... and if it sounds good to me then I'm happy... and the technical guy sitting over there saying that the technique is all wrong can just bite me.

//Because of the removal of these barriers, it follows that these musicians are freer to focus on more innovative ideas. The whole 'learning how to learn' thing kicks in.

Of course, it can also be argued that a classical training will stifle creativity, and there are definitely some naturally talented musicians that benefited from not having constraints imposed by a teacher...etc

I don't really see it as a getting-good-fast issue - but on average I wager that classically trained musicians are more technically proficient, and better able to communicate their ideas than self-trained musicians.

Please note I'm not saying self-taught musicians are no good, but for a naturally talented musician with a lot of exciting ideas, I think some lessons with a good teacher for even a couple of years through school would make the subsequent playing/composing process a lot less frustrating.

//Yeah I'm not sure if that's what you might call 'universal' good advice, but I'm glad it worked for you and it does work for people who react well to tuition.

Hah! Very diplomatic. I confess I'm painfully aware of the fact that it's people that took lessons that say that lessons are necessary, and those that didn't who say they're not. I don't think I've ever met anyone that said "I wish I'd taken lessons when I had the chance", and I've definitely never met a musician that said "geez, I wish I'd never bothered with lessons".

wow another case of open a reply window get distracted wait an hour or so and type two lines

what possible sense is their in not learning music theory? It beggars belief that anyone can expect to have any sort of career without this fundemental skill. Unless your just another wannabe thinking your self contained top40 band is going to keep you feed for the next 35 years by choosing to not read your limiting your musical ability, options and earning power greatly. if anyone reading this can post can offer an intelligent reason as to how selecting to not learn to read the language of our beloved craft is a good option i'd love to read it.

//I remember it beingcompulsory to do te reo maori- I'm hazy now whether it was untill fourth form or not-

Nope. Unfortunatley Maori was only ever a compulsory option in 3rd form. I remember quite clearly.

//you gotta remember that all the people who write for nzmusician

does not that guitar guy from Kitset write for them now and again. he was a brilliant musician in my opinion.

Jesus.....I shoudl have guessed that people were going to get up in arms about this. Like Heather said, no one who is self-taught wishes they had lessons, and no one who has had lessons wishes they were self-taught.

Actually Lena, I have taught a lot of people, maybe 100, aged between 8 years old and 50 years old.

I have only taught music theory to those that wanted to learn it, palm muting for the metallers, even how to set up your amp for various sounds, whatever. I have attended students' band practices and helped young teenage bands get stuff happening faster than they would on their own, which to me is a big part of why you would go to a teacher in the first place.
I have used the songs my students are particularly into as examples of how to write a certain type of song, so that it is relevant to the student and interesting and fun for them. As a teacher, my goal has always been to help students unlock the magic of their favourite artists' songs by understanding what is happening, and why one thing sounds good while another does not. I have had many parents tell me how their child loves coming to lessons with me and gets really inspired, and that to me is about all a guitar teacher could hope to do.

Incidentally, Johnny Fleury was one of my teachers circa 1998, and he used to have a similar effect on me.

I wrote a booklet for students to use, covering things like open chords, barre chords, pentatonics (major and minor), diatonic scales (major and minor), how to strum in time (with several popular strumming patterns to practice), improvisation, names of the frets, building triads (major, minor), extended chords etc. Over the years, students of mine have shown this booklet to their self-taught friends and these friends have contacted me and requested a copy for themselves, which I have happily given them. I can't understand why anyone would want to remain ignorant of the musical conventions by which musicians understand each other and use to communicate with each other, except maybe some delusion about being completely unrestricted, and not having to obey "the rules". In my experience, the least experienced musicians generally tend to write the most cliched music. If you don't know the rules, how can you break them?

I agree that most teachers aren't particularly good for their students, and teach as an easy way to earn a regular paycheck, rather than because they are particularly passionate about imparting knowledge.

As I said before, I believe the notion of the brilliant untrained musician is by and large a romantic fantasy.

I would wager that any of the untrained musicians on these pages would find a few visits to a good teacher to be both enlightening and hugely beneficial, but that's my opinion as a trained musician, so of course the untrained people are going to disagree, and it is their right to do so.

Finally, to the person who said you learn the most from playing in a band, I could not agree more. To anyone still in high school who is thinking about doing rockquest but thinks they might not be good enough, do it. Even if you've been playing for three months, geta band together and go for it. There is nothing to lose and you'll learn a lot, meet heaps of like-minded people and have a whole lot of fun. Even if you don't get anywhere, you'll love it, and you'll be better prepared for next year. Get your teacher to help you....

I am tired of not knowing how to write music notation- I know exactly what I want to hear, what each instument is doing, the way each instrument is played, the sound of the ensemble, but I have know way of getting it out of my head and onto a piece of paper to go back to. Oh, the FRUSTRATION! So this year is the year I start learning it. I said that last year, but I don't think I was frustrated enough last year to go through with it.

but robert johnson cheated big stu, or so romour has it. one day crap, ridiculed by other musicians about his uselessness, then several months later the greatest guitarist of his time, how?

well most people know the story. make for a topic on its own, folk stories, true or false? you decide.

see you at the cross roads

I'll shut up now