I've seen quite a few posters trot out lines about people using computers (this actually seems to cover almost any electronic device that doesn't have a guitar plugged into it) requiring no skill to make the music they do.
The thing I find most ridiculous about this is that the underlying assumption is that if music is easy to do then it's no good.
The logical extension of that is that the hardest music (the music that demands the most skill to play) is the best.
The people who trot out this argument don't actually believe that, in my experience. Sure they might point to a John Bonham solo or maybe some Buckethead or (heaven forbid) Steve Vai. But For anyone you want to hold up as doing something incredibly skilful in the land of "rock" there's someone doing something way more complicated in the land of jazz or academic music, and it's probably sounding pretty awful to the untrained ear. Going back to a decent back beat and a tasty riff is generally a welcome relief for most. It sure is for me, anyway.
There are other arguments about why computers in music are bad, most of which I respect.
Thanks, and have a good day. :)
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Oops, I meant to put this in the bar. ...
Oops, I meant to put this in the bar. Oh well, I guess it relates to New Zealand music, as there are many talented people writing electronic music in NZ.
i welcome a discussion on this topic ...
i welcome a discussion on this topic but 'cheating' ???!!!
// The thing I find most ridiculous ...
// The thing I find most ridiculous about this is that the underlying assumption is that if music is easy to do then it's no good.
I know some people have much respect and admiration for guitarists who can play incredibly fast and accurately, the kind of skills that takes hundreds and hundreds of hours shut away in a suburban bedroom practising.
But just as being a fast, accurate typist doesn't neccessarily make you a brilliant author, the same thing goes for guitar playing.
Sometimes the best songs out there are dorky three chord punk songs played by people who can barely play their instruments.
usually the best songs are so technical ...
usually the best songs are so technical the general public dont like them
e... yuh huh...
e... yuh huh
I just find it quite funny how for all ...
I just find it quite funny how for all their wild, over the top talent, technical expertise and hours upon hours of rehearsals, Satriani/Vai/etc always ends up being the soundtrack of choice for strippers and b-grade porn... errr... so I've heard...
i reckon soon you'll be ablo to make ...
i reckon soon you'll be ablo to make music from cellphones how cool would that be !
You can do that actually. My cuzzies a ...
You can do that actually. My cuzzies a pro at hitting up mini beats with my mobile on composer.
There are also several sequencers for ...
There are also several sequencers for older Gameboys, presumably people are coming up with more stuff like that all the time.
The only problem I have with ...
The only problem I have with 'computer' music, are those who sample too much. It shows a lack of respect for the original artists intention.
By all means take a song and make it your own by covering it if you love it, but to cut up a song and add a drum and bass beat underneath just because you want to dance to it and then put your name to it... grrrr... That's like re-editing someone's movie and calling it yours.
Create music how you like just make it yourself.
same thing with covers bands and ...
same thing with covers bands and general rock unoriginality though.
ever heard DJ Shadow's "Endtroducing" ? - it got in the guiness book of records for the first album created entirely from samples. sure sampling can be a cheap way of getting something good without any effort, but when it's done right (rather rarely) it can be amazing.
(I mean "general rock unoriginality" as ...
(I mean "general rock unoriginality" as a case in point, hell I listen to more rock than anything)
// it got in the guiness book of ...
// it got in the guiness book of records for the first album created entirely from samples
Did it!? Weird. I would've thought the Plunderphonics stuff was much earlier than that.
//Create music how you like just make ...
//Create music how you like just make it yourself.
I agree, sampling is alot of fun. :)
hear hear mister jet !...
hear hear mister jet !
speaking of music with computers - ...
speaking of music with computers - hopefully the DISASTERADIO 2004 stage setup will include an Amiga, a 386, a C64 and maybe an atari ST !
in many ways it can actaully be harder ...
in many ways it can actaully be harder to make music using computers. . . as far as i know, when you strum a guitar, it sounds roughly like a guitar, even if you can't play.
when you make a sound on a computer (assuming you get that far) , chances are it will sound like a piece of shit.
It's easy enough to tap in a melody using your keyboard, but the real skill in electronic music is playing about getting good sounds, and making all the good sounds fit neatly together. ..
the magic of havin a computer and a ...
the magic of havin a computer and a microphone is that u have litrally a studio!! cool az man i really dig makin music on the computer- but if yr gonna jump on people who do.... wat about dj idiotic keyboardists who jst need to push a key, to make a monster beat, and backing tracks. and then play sample vocals over n over and yes im talkin about u moby u f*#@n pillick!!! (oops) 'excuse me'
For real its less time consuming, yes ...
For real its less time consuming, yes true a studio right there & its talent if you can really suss up some good phat beats. But still that can be nothing compared to the good shit that a great band can produce. Its all for the layzie but transparent musical producer & if you can do your shit right using a pc then why not as long as its not so talentless when you hear it. You can truly make up some mean stirring beats but bottom line is that it can never beat the real shit of talent that a musical instrument player could do.
bullshit- i have a choice- i can werite ...
bullshit- i have a choice- i can werite up a score & rewrite & arrange on paper- or i can do it on sibelius- once i got the score i can make copies & give it to a working group of musos- or i can feed it into a computer- in each instance i have to listen & rearrange & tweak- 2 things differentiate each process
1- most groups of musos are useless- wont play with 'feel' or 'swing' until you start brandishing a gun
2- having a group= more people working on the project= the possibility of one of those heads coming up with a 'valid' idea- ie the plucked strings in god only knows- cant remember that guys name
The computer becomes an instrument in ...
The computer becomes an instrument in the hands of one who treats it as such. If this way of creating music means that genuinally musical people such as Manuel Bundy can create the ish he does, then it's gotta be good. Same as turntables, I used to think that they were a waste of time musically until I saw dj's who treated them as instruments, and in turn added to the sound of a group. Technology for all it's pro's and cons has now allowed the musical soundscape in which we live to be enlargened. As a bass player, it sometimes gets frustrating realising that I ain't gonna get called for a session if they can do it on the MPC, but a music lover, I get excited to see how people use these new mediums to put across their musical ideas.
// You can truly make up some mean ...
// You can truly make up some mean stirring beats but bottom line is that it can never beat the real shit of talent that a musical instrument player could do.
I think your views are biased by the kind of music you're trying to make using a computer. I would suggest that most electronic producers use electronic means because they like the results, not because it's easier. (although, as I started out saying above, so what if it is easier?)
I've never heard a drummer who was talented enough to sound like a tweaked out series of clicks and pops slowly shifting in pitch until they become a bass rumble. I've never heard a singer that was talented enough to sound like waves of static slowly becoming more and more jagged and shaped until they become a rhythm. I've never heard a keyboardist that was talented enough to sound like a choir of insects rising through the atmosphere.
Okay ya'll you can produce the ...
Okay ya'll you can produce the phattest of rhymes with the phattest of beats.
If you know your shit then you can be so technically professional at it & be simply the best.
When I mean it can't beat the real deal of a real instrument player simply what Im saying is that its a beautiful thing to play such beautiful tunes etc with the gift of knowing your piece. Once upon a time we had no computers, modern technology. I have the meanest dj who composes my beats through means of dj techy equipment & computers even his x-box but sure to say that nothing can beat a naturally gifted person who can play their thing with pure natural harmony instead of manipulating beats with the touch of a button or the click of a mouse and/or auto edit & shit like that.
Shittt...I aint dogging our modern technology & by the way Ph*K we got the most evil hook ups with the phattest extreme beats worldwide who are using all this technical shit that is ever so outstanding.
For example if you know your shit with an electric guitar..dam theres no click of a mouse there..with the latest technology you only need time & creative mind to create such masterpieces everytime.
Both ways you can be talented.
Before there was pc's there was instruments, before that there was only voices.
//Before there was pc's there was ...
//Before there was pc's there was instruments, before that there was only voices.
before there were intelligent beings roaming the earth there was you
I take that as a compliment. Yes mind ...
I take that as a compliment.
Yes mind wise I was here before even the most intelligent.
Thanks for that fine definition.
yeah - i guess the primate tag is a bit ...
yeah - i guess the primate tag is a bit mean on monkeys
in reality i guess you were just dropped on you head a few too many times as a baby
Lena - Its obvious that you need to ...
Lena - Its obvious that you need to start hanging that cats that can, in your opinion', play with 'feel'.
Who in New Zealand would you recommend?
If you conduct yourself in the real world like you do in these forums, i'd be disinclined to work with you anyway.
¿in nz?- ¿apart from me?- ill get back ...
¿in nz?- ¿apart from me?- ill get back to you on that one
Samflux are you okay? Im sure you have ...
Samflux are you okay? Im sure you have been dropped thousand times more.
Mind your head we dont want it to be 1001 times already!
Thats the kind of lame answer I've ...
Thats the kind of lame answer I've come to expect from you Lena.....get back with something credible please.
:)
ok- alan haig will do for a start...
ok- alan haig will do for a start
I don't understand why you have to be ...
I don't understand why you have to be technically gifted to be a 'real musician'. Nigel Kennedy and Michael Houstoun don't even write their own music, so perhaps they're cheating as well. Hell, Kiri Te Kanawa doesn't even play an instrument.
I don't think it's cheating to focus on your performance and technical prowess, just as it's not cheating to use a computer as your creative outlet. The whole "cheating" debate seems to boil down to this idea that people that write electronica don't work up a sweat during a live performance.
I think electronica is fantastic because it opens up the musical landscape to a whole lot of brand new ideas - aphex twin, the most obvious example, is writing stuff that's unthinkable in the context of two guitars, bass and drums. I wonder how many electronica gurus started by playing "real" instruments, and moved onto samples and computers just because they felt restricted by their instrument of choice?
//that people that write electronica ...
//that people that write electronica don't work up a sweat during a live performance.
People who say that, have not seen Disasteradio.
And Minuit can get pretty sweaty.
Your voice is an instrument. In fact ...
Your voice is an instrument. In fact the closest one to your brain, the place where music stems from.
//I wonder how many electronica gurus ...
//I wonder how many electronica gurus started by playing "real" instruments
most of them from what i can ascertain
and most of them also still play real instruments, whether to add to their electronic stuff or just for relaxation. .
i have to admit, that however limited some instuments are, theres still some crazy mystique about picking up an acoustic guitar, or sitting at a piano, and just playing what comes into your head. .
[ http://www.mp3.com.au/grusome ]
//Nigel Kennedy and Michael Houstoun ...
//Nigel Kennedy and Michael Houstoun don't even write their own music, so perhaps they're cheating as well. Hell, Kiri Te Kanawa doesn't even play an instrument.//
So they are clearly no more thatn crappy popstars ... preps and slappers if you will ... haul out the barbed wire and send them off to the rice fields ....
// I've never heard a singer that was ...
// I've never heard a singer that was talented enough to sound like waves of static slowly becoming more and more jagged and shaped until they become a rhythm
...well i saw this improv Japanese throat singer at Happy and well he sounded pretty wierd....
all power to computer geeks...your time is now....birchville cat motel plays off a laptop and it mesmerised my brain....SJD play with protools and it rocks the party...
mind that jet jaguar guy is a bit shady...i heard he doesn't even use a computer, and actually hides an army of monkeys backstage with prohpets and moogs and oberhiems and arps and roland drum machines etc....and he just MIMES at a fake computer...the cheat!
// he just MIMES at a fake ...
// he just MIMES at a fake computer
I reckon it'd be ace to have a traditional band playing behind a curtain with someone up front of stage miming mouse clicks on a computer.!
yes that 'would' be great...if you ...
yes that 'would' be great...if you wern't already doing it...you evil man..I heard you have Tom Watson from Cassette conducting the minkeys...I'm calling the SPCA
Heyzoos Christ Jet its like you are ...
Heyzoos Christ Jet its like you are reading my mind or something......rock on bro.
Either you replied without reading ...
Either you replied without reading what I wrote, you can't read, or you're happy to completely contradict yourself all within one topic. Actually, maybe we could go with all of the above? Rock on bro.
So why are people saying electronically ...
So why are people saying electronically it's easier? I find playing a guitar hard cos my hands arn't used to it. They dont' stretch that far. Computers can be just as confusing, especially since you're using all the instruments and not just one. You're playing all the instruments you want and need. You need some sense of rhythm to start with. So why is it easier?
And who started the arguement that most complex music is better? One of my fav songs is "Angel" by sarah mclaughlan - and it's relatively simple. And honestly, if you're looking for complex, then why is mozart, bach, mendelsohn and such not still at the top of the game. Now THEY are composers of some phenominal talent. And there are many who love it. So what do you pick? I think "best" is really a personal term.
keep practising - thats how i felt when ...
keep practising - thats how i felt when i first started playing but after a few days i got used to it. I find music produced by any artifical means such as Computers as Completely un-natural and having no ability to play another instrument.
but NZ MUSO do keep at the Guitar as they say - Practice Makes Perfection.
Sam, or Chris, whoever you are. You are ...
Sam, or Chris, whoever you are. You are an idiot.
You are closed-minded, yet you yell and scream, and basically whine like a little bitch, every chance you get about people not respecting your beliefs.
Infact your whole belief system thing that you have going on, is basically invalid, because it's a contradiction in itself. It's like saying you don't like the colour red, and then wearing a red t-shirt everyday of the year or something like that, and then dissing somebody else who is wearing red. Stupid Comparison, but that's what you're doing, contradicting yourself, and being a hypocrite no-less.
Wise up man.
ur an imbiscile....
ur an imbiscile.
//ur an imbiscile. that's a work ...
//ur an imbiscile.
that's a work of art. Words can't express...
so... uh... a guitar aint artificial- ...
so... uh... a guitar aint artificial- ¿huh scam?... so... uh... i guess you got a ¿gibson tree & a marshall vine on your organic farm?... i love your posts- but i know that youre just pretending to thicker than a thick thing- cant resist biting your bait sometimes tho
i guess this is why theres no point in ...
i guess this is why theres no point in comparing anything,
its all how YOU see it.
damm unity perspective makes me appear...............................
100% percent concurrence once there ...
100% percent concurrence
once there was a guy said making music with violins is cheating
but forget that dude
he feared the machine
Commodore 64's are computers and ...
Commodore 64's are computers and awesome musical instruments.
The old SID chips absolutely rock. They have some of the phattest synth tones on the planet.