Ok... I don't really know why I started to reply to this post because it's such a huge unanswerable question... but hey, it's your lucky day :-) stream-of-consciousness off the top of my head crap to follow....

I'd say the fundamental things are (sort of in order of importance) are: The song, the performance, the 'gear/studio'.

Some songs just don't need a producer. Some songs don't need fancy sound and expensive gear. Some songs just won't work unless they have all of the above.... etc. The same goes for bands. Some need a lot of producing... some don't... some will just sond bland and crap if they get produced in a way that doesn't work with what the band is trying to achieve. Some bands will sound great in a bedroom and stupid in York St. Some songs will really only come to life when you get that exquisate vintage mic collection in the high price studio and the fancy-pants engineer to position the mic 'just so' and twiddle the million dollar knobs.

Darcy Clay had his 4 track recordings all over NZ airwaves... I know he's the exception, but also a good example of a song/artist that didn't require 'outside' production in any sense - Darcy was able to put together something in his bedroom that would have the spark that made people want to listen to it. In fact I hate to think what might have happened if Jesus I Was Evil had been produced... which brings me to:

I've seen a situation where a friend of mine won a national competition a few years back and as a 'prize' had his song recorded (demolished) by a notable producer... He had a really cool mellow acoustic-guitar driven song that got transformed into an overblown, stupid sounding, and 'produced' track. Needless to say it didn't exactly storm the charts. Simply the wrong producer for the job.

Some bands, even with a great song, need a producer just to get the performance out of the artist. A song played poorly, even a great song, can really be hindered. Some bands aren't in need of this at all... and also, some producers don't do this at all. That the mystery... if you don't get the right producer then you can be in trouble. Some are more focussed on the sonic quality of things... some focussed on the song/arrangement... some on the performance and the groove... or usually some balance of all these things. But it is important to get a producer that 'balances' the skills of the artist. If the artist is a shit-hot player that can band out a wicked performance in a take or two, and they have a killer song, then you need a producer that is closer to an engineer - able to capture the performace and make it the best it can be sonically. If you have a great song but you're not the best player, then a producer that can work with you to inspire or somehow get a great performance is perhaps the best way to go.

All I can really say is that you have to look at the song, and the artist and question what would be the most valuable investment. If you think that you'll have trouble getting the vocal track nailed then maybe a good producer that can really bring the best out of artist would be the best bet. If you need that killer polished drum sound then a good studio and good mics are a good start (actually a good drummer is a good place to start... and then well thought out drum parts... and then good sounding drums... and then well tuned drums... and then... maybe then... the studio comes into play).

Being in a fancy studio can be a bit of an... ummmm... what's the word? Double edged sword or something. All the nice gear is great... but if you don't feel relaxed then it can all turn to shit as you realised how much money each messed up take is costing you. But on the other hand, a good producer and/or engineer should be making sure the vibe is really relaxed and doing whatever it takes to get the artist to perform killer stuff.

As others have just said though... you need to have total confidence in the song first and foremost. If the song isn't there then write another one... 'cos it really isn't worth the $$$ and effort to make something out of nothing. I hear a lot of well recorded crap, but that's all it is. Well recorded crap. Ultimately it goes nowhere, even though a producers name or a studio nake might make it a little easier to get an initial playing of the song by a PD or whoever, in the long run everyone is just after a song that grabs them. It's easy to get caught up in getting the best kick drum sound or whatever... but that means nothing with out having a solid song for that kick drum to help drive. In fact... sometimes what is technically good/nice/killer production can actually undo the charm of a song. Funny how it all works eh?

Oh well... this was a pretty meandering meaningless post. I don't know if I really answered your question... hope it had some entertainment value or something.

Have fun,
Dylan

P.s. no-one take this seriously please.

[ http://www.stardrunk.com ]

Holy crap batman... my typo meter has just gone off the scale!

Yeah... long day. Not intending to bump this post... just kinda funny.

[ http://www.typo.com ]

Acutally I'll add one more thing just for fun. That last post wasn't very practical... so here's something off the top of my head for how to make the most of your money.

I do a lot of home recording... I have a modest setup with a few good mics and preamps, probably not far off what a lot of bands/artists have that are into recording good demos these days. One area that I (and many others that I notice) have trouble with is getting true radio-class drum sounds. I can get cool sounds... but I'd class them as 'character sounds' rather than seriously usable radio worthy sounds. It's tough without some pretty good gear to get that great sound (unless you get into sampled/sequenced drums which are becoming a viable option for all genres... but that's another post I can't be bothered writing tonight :-)

I know a lot of people that can get radio quality stuff as far as most other sounds go, but not for drums, and this is where the opportunity is. A great set of drums captured well in a good studio can be a worthwhile investment IF you can get a respectable sound with your other instruments. It is a trend happening everywhere (NZ and o.seas) that the fancy studios are getting used SOLELY for recording drums.... and the engineers are getting bored shitless as all they do day in and day out is listen to drum takes! But yeah, my point is I guess that it's starting to be a viable way to go.

And while I think of it.... vocals.

most people in a home studio can get some nice vocal sounds... but don't take nearly enough care with getting really strong vocal takes. Just make sure you spend a good amount of effort getting really good character, pitching and concistancy (unless your song requires the opposite) - so many poeple seem to just short cut the vocal recording process in home/bedroom studios. Seems odd because for 95% of the stuff that get's to the airwaves, the vocal carries the whole song.

I guess that what happens is that in a studio you're more likely to work with a producer, whereas in a home studio you're most likely to do it yourself, and that's often what is missing in home recordings... the quality of home studio sound these days can be really good with what's available to us for bugger all $$$, but the fact that the songs aren't getting a producer's input (when often that would have been really helpful) is what lets things down.

[ http://www.thisisnotreallyawebsite.com ]

Weird. You people are weird. Not that that's a bad thing. How can you type so much.
eh, gah!

[ www.digik.net/serenity ]

I just save up all my typing power and unleash in one or two big monster posts!

As for timing drums? I guess you are talking about editing drum takes? I don't really know what the answer is. I've seen it done every way from raw drum takes with no editing whatsoever, through to drum takes that were so chopped up they may as well have been programmed.

I know it's not useful... but there really are no rules. There are some genres that would resent the idea of editing drums too much... but put a blindfold on them and they'd probably be stoked with how much better things can sound with a nip and tuck done tastefully.

One big danger while we're on the subject is making sure that the drummer doesn't anticipate that "oh they're just going to edit them later so I can just play like crap" cos he/she won't even try to pull of a great take, so you'll end up with a take with no spark to it - and the editopr will have to sow together 3 takes of crap to make (most likely) a fairly dull take. Often people complain that the energy dies when a drum take is edited... I don't think that is always the case, but it certainly can happen if you're not careful - especially if you get carried away. A good test is when you come to lay all the other instruments over the drums... often the drums can get so cleaned up that the other instruments just never sit with the drum track as well as they do with a 'real' take. Usually it's too late by then though!

It comes down to what you want to achieve - often that is dictated by your genre. A lot of modern rock related stuff these days requires obscenely tight metronomic style drums, and that's usually the result of severe editing (or programming these days). A lot of the retro rock actually has an intentional messiness that you won't need any fancy protools editing to achieve. Some pop stuff needs a great groove, but also a cleanliness that might be helped by editing.

No two editors are equal either... you have to use your ears and decide whether each edit is going to make things better or worse - and don't forget that lots of the most memorable drum parts in recorded music are from those little 'errors' that add life to a track. No-one will remember the drum pattern edited to perfection, but that little mis-hit snare in a funny place might be perfect.

My personal view, especially here in NZ where we don't have the money so sit in a studio for months to get perfect drum takes is to "do whatever it takes". Seriously, if you start with a good base, and use good gudgement with your edits, no-one should be able to even tell, and you'll be a hell of a lot closer to a 'proffesional' sort of production. It's certainly one of the tools that bedroom producers can use to get a head start when you can't afford a session drummer...

I say all this stuff as if I actually know what I'm talking about - but I'm just babbling some stuff as I see it, don't take anything here as authoritative by any means!

It's my bedtime.

Good night all.

[ http://www.sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.com ]

While we're talking about drum sounds, I've got a curiosity-fuelled question. There's a particular kick drum effect that I've always wondered how to produce. It's something that I've heard on two mainstream rock-ish songs (off the top of my head) but sounds like the kick was recorded in a bedroom or summat.

The two songs are 'High and Dry' by Radiohead and 'In My Place' by Coldplay. If you know the sound I mean, and have some inside knowledge, I'd really like to know. I thought maybe it's a really loose bass skin, but that's just an ignorant vocalist's guess!

What's your goals? Perhaps i havn't learnt them over the time, but i think that's where you need to start.

It's great having home recording. My other half and his flatmates have their comptuers set up to their amps, with guitars, mixers and microphones. There's a drum kit, but they mainly use the computer. But their goal is simple. It's to record it there for their own personal use to perfect the songs and keep working on them.

What's your goal?

If it's to be signed to a major or indie label - ring and ask them what they require. I bet they get asked all the time. They may require something produced through york street, or they may require a live performance. Why waste your money and time on a demo when they may require a live performance? Ring and ask them what they want, and who they suggest using, and how they suggest going about it. See if you can speak to someone who listens to the demo's, and what quality they're after.

If it's for you and family. Do it anyway you please.

If you want to sell it or promote an album at your gigs - record it in a cheap studio where you can basically control the whole thing, but at least it's soundproofed and has the correct equipment. Take it to york street, take in another mainstream CD and tell them to do the levels like that one. It's a couple of hundred dollars, but you don't have to record it there to get it mastered there. You state how much time to put on it.

Unless you are just doing it for yourselves at home, i'd suggest a real recording studio. Pick one you can be in charge of though. Get in an engineer, but find a place where you don't have to use a producer. Do it yourself.

My suggestion is to figure out exactly what you want first. In way of sound also. Get something like Sonar off the net, and record into that, and play with it's effects so you know what you want. Record it basically, and when you go into the recording studio, take in the cd with you and show them what effects you want on stuff, so they know what they're listening for.

If it were me also, i'd "interview" some recording studio's. Find out their policies, ask for ohter stuff they've done, and ring their references.

Just my thoughts.... i recorded my song on the weekend - it's for university application. It's so clear, i can hear every little verbrato in my voice, and if i'm off by a semi-tone. So it doesnt' sound perfect, but it's bloody good, and will do for the job. It's just guitar, my voice, and another doing harmony. But its great in my eyes, and that's what matters.

As you put, what works for the band at that particular time is the most important crieterion.
As long as your learning in the studio its all good. Hit single? If thats why your in the studio
or playing music, then a plauge upon your house. You'll never know the possibilites of your
playing or instrument unless you record and then listen honestly.
Foal30

Okay, sorry to do this as it is not really adding to this topic.

But I can make little drum tracks and things for pc recordings (fun, nothing serious), but have to use the midi sounds given in the programs (generally really techno soundings). although I can use wave files too, but can't find any realistic drum sounds (my recordings maybe low budge, but I to have real sounding things)...

anyway, is there anyone with individual drums recorded into wav format? or that is able to do it?? because if tere is that would be awesome, and even better if they were willing to email the wav files to me :)

if anyone can help me please leave a message here and then I can leave my email address.. or if you leave yours I can email you..

oh heck.. I'm cave_boy03@hotmail.com, if you can help, please drop me an email