Kiwi bands don't sell out they relocate.

A shift in genre is a telling sign of going after the bucks particularly a shift from alt rock to popular pop in saying that I guess you could argure SP were popular rock. I was personally disappointed with Z when I listened to at Real Groovy, but I will have another listen. The thread title is a bit vague really because if we are talking kiwi bands selling out or cashing in, the bands that get a lot of shit on this sight for the style of music they play, have always played that style it's just what they like. The public buy it the record company promote it or you can argue the chicken egg caper if you like. But I mean seriously what's there to cash in on here? Sell out to who?

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I think that Zwan is an album of really nice pop songs, well executed and a pleasure to listen to. It is a really nice end piece to Smashing Pumpkins, and hopefully the beginning of a new and positive period in Billy Corgans songwriting.

If Billy was into the money, Smashing Pumpkins would still be going, and he would still be depressed.

I'm with you.

What qualifies anyone to say anything about why a musician makes the music they do?

Nothing does.

No-one can say 'sell-out' without making a heap of prejudgements about the depth of an artists music and their reasons for making it.

No-one except the artists themselves know why they do what they do, and even then there are tons of artists who DON'T know- they just play. A lot of the commercial activity you might so easily label as 'selling out' is the artist's record company and it's sales targets. Even then, what's wrong with wanting to make money? I couldn't care about this less.... hang on, yes I could. Too late, I've already posted ;)

Oddly enough these are the replies I was hoping to see turn up in this thread, thanks guys you're helping to restore my faith in music.

Anyway, might as well end this thread here.

Give me a break, pseudo intellectual bullshit that i thought I left behind at art school in the 70s
According to your premise Ed we are all emptyheaded tossers who need to be told what is good by a select few who understand art. Give us a break.
A very famous anti apartheid poet called Breyten Breytenbach while in jail for his beliefs penned a poem about the white waves smashing themselves against the black rocks of Still Bay, the sad pseudo intellectuals hailed it as a master piece describing the racial struggle in South Africa...
To which he replied "No I was only remebering the last time I was there before I came to jail....
Art and music is not some deep meaningful livechanging gift.. it is first and formost there for the enjoyment of the artist and if others like it.. so be it.
That goes for punk as much as country or classical music.
Comments like yours always seem to me to have a hint of envey, a dash of desperation and a whole lot of sour grapes.
Your opinion is valid only as much as any one elses.

sorry ed- but oyster's right- what it comes down to is that your post doesn't ring true- it smacks of you coming to grips with ideas about music- but not yet grasping them fully- ¿that whole vague categorization of music for eg? can be simplified- these are the spheres in which music has an impact

heart
mind
soul
ass

all music hits a combo of 2 or more of these- ¿pop music? focus on heart & ass- but all these 4 are equal- heart & ass music is the most instantly appreciated- hence 11-14 yr olds flock to buy timberlake- then when these listeners 'grow up' & get the mind a soul stuff they relegate heart & ass to the bin- you grow out of that tho- i would also argue that the % of 'crap' music released in the 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's 80's & 90's is the same as it is now- you just don't hear it any more

Yeah, I have to agree with Oysterbokkie too.
//did your 70s art school experience leave you so incapable of joining the debate constructively?t
that my friend does indeed come accross as "bitter", especially since the case and point about Breyten Breytenbach was a very constructive argument.

ok- here goes

so far... thanks to recording devices (the enemy of art) all of these spectra have been well explored and dissected and injected with steroids / silicone
- a new & diff hammer is not the building- a builder incapable of weilding either is

a modern contemporary musician is left to dredge thru these genres and cross-pollinate them / pick and choose like from a bargain bin / genetically engineer new tunes from the chromosomes of tunes that worked well in the past
- check history you will find that that is what composers & musicians have been doing since time immemorial

the music being heard the most today (and bringing the biggest labels the phattest cheques) is aimed at those among us who have the most impressionable minds and the most disposable income
- check history you will find that that is what the powers that be in music have been doing since time immemorial

a lot of money is going into the packaging
a lot of minds are being warped by a terribly cliche'd incestuous hybrid of music
- check history you will find that that is what the distributors of music as a marketable & consummable commodity have been doing since... well- since music was able to be distributed in this fashion

like a particularly nasty strain of virus we're not even aware is a virus yet... and it's flooding into our ears from every direction... it's perverse especially nauseating when the word "artist" is bandied around along with it even the word "music" should be given a bit of a rest "horse shit" is a far more accurate description hey! it's ok to sell horse shit for a living...just quit calling yourselves original
- so you don't like timberlake- but there have always been timberlakes- & there will always be timberlakes- ¿originality?- i rate him as or more original than a lot of the bands members laud on this site- anyway- for any 'artist' you or i- or anyone- can name- there is always a list of at least 5 from whom the new kids will have derived most of their 'originality'

also- some people just naturally make heart & ass music- & there is a lot of money sunk into exploiting this- but that's because the good stuff will sell in buckets- billions of asians eat rice- doesn't mean rice is bad

the library has a good cd collection- lots of music lit too

2 major flaws in your argument

1- some artists musicians choose to make commercial music

2- young people will consume what they is marketed for their consumption

neither of these are true- some musicians naturally make music which is more commercially viable- &- if you coat a spinach & chicken liver pie in m&m's a 10 year will still not eat it- ¿youngies are impressionable & easily swayed?- only a fool or someone in their late teens would think so

NZ is one of the most amazing places to grow up, specially if you're lucky enough to travel and get a chance to experience a slightly different way of life.
Yeah sometimes I do go back and check out some of the more accessable places that I lived, a lot of the places though were and still are only able to be accessed by boat or helicopter, it really amazes me to think about it, and often it seems a bit surreal to have ever lived like that, like maybe it was all a dream!

Some of the things that you take for granted as day to day in a lighthouse situation are really extraordinary when you live in the real world, e.g I could sew, darn, knit, change spark plugs, and test electrical circuits (all quite diverse tasks) by the time I was 10, I always thought it was normal, but get to the mainland and it turns out I was a freak by th estandards of my peers, now as we've all grown up it's turned to advantage, so many things I don't need to hire an outside contracter for!

Cause although I appreciate the beauty of art in all it's forms, I accept that it is a materialistic part of our world, and if I have enough money I can buy all the art I want.

...or even paintbrushes, paints, canvases...

// I see you also have a website with music and images, recorded and then promoted.
//Marketed to gain a bigger audience. Hypocritical perhaps?

i don't care why its there...but i'm glad its there so fan's like me can see his latest work.

I dont know if lena o knows your age or if she has deducted it from your style of reasoning, but I have to admit that the more i read your posts the more it comes across as some-one who has not really experienced life yet and has a very idialistic point of view.

And that is really neat. it is good to have good ideals. However just examine what lies behind your reasoning. I think that you will find that you base your arguments on a school of thought that has been around for generations. It is not original. And it is a school of thought usually associated with students or fringe artists.

Spike Milligan once said that when he was 16 he thought that his dad was a fool and by the time he turned 21 he was surprized at how much his dad had learned in the last 5 years. Think about it.

Arguments are constructed on factual information. The only reality based points came from lena o oyster bokkie and monkeypuzzle, your arguments are the standard idealist rhetoric coated in emotive language. It just does not stack up.

Having said that, at least it does show that you are thinking and that is great.
Reread your posts and think it through then go and read some school mags and varsity rags from the 50's, 60's and 70's. it is all there. Then ask yourself why those people are not out there, now in their later life saying the same things.

A last point. If i was oysterbokkie i would be highly offended. You just rubbished his attendance to art school accusing him of selling out, then : //"oysterbokie's sculpture is art - because it's for himself - i don't care how well it might be executed - just the fact that he tells me it's for himself is enough... i'd like to see it//

tut tut

i have been resisting up until noe ..

//Arguments are constructed on factual information

this is the funniest thing ive read thus far .. classic .. what world are you living in?

thats all for now

This will be my last post on this subject because I believe that it serves no purpose.
the reason?
//be addressed by mass media they make a mutant disney /christian moronic simplificaion // to me this is a very stereo typical statement. I am not a christian nor a fan of disney. Yet it annoys me that when some-one whats to make an impression in a discussion the "chritian" card is always a good standby. you can as easily replace the word christian with jewish, muslim, hindi or atheist . A collective believe system has no input into this discussion.

I do agree with you on one point ed. And that is that the media (TV, Radio, underground magazines0 only give the point of veiw of the correspondent.

I work in film and television. I make documentaries. Is it of any value other than entertainment? offcourse not!! No matter the subject I will always do it from my point of veiw.

//this doesn't sound so bad... but beyond what we're not talking about that's going on in our own hearts - there's a whole world of absolute obscenity going on in poverty stricken countrys - and even in the domestic situation around us here in paradaisical NZ - youth RIP//

my 2 final points. People like Bono has done a damn sight more for those in dire staits overseas than I ever have or will be able to do. So did Bob geldorf. But we can knock that as well with the Christian white middleclass male argument.

And lastly. When I get together with friends we seem to talk rugby, or go diving and the like....maybe we are to shallow to get caught up in the mass media manipulation thing...

//mass recording is the enemy of art.

Dude I just have to respond, it's relativly recent in human evolution that we have elevated music to an 'art' form, it's main purpose to our cave dwelling and animal skin wearing ancestors was as a means of story telling and "recording" history to be passed on down the generations, strengthening and keeping alive the culture.

So at this primal but still incredibly relevant level, doesn't it stand to reason that the more people we can reach with our music, and the same holds true for visual art also(it's heritage and purpose are the same, history/story telling), the stonger and more vibrant our culture and community become? so therefore small scale recording would be the enemy of art!
And food has to be put on the table, traditionally the artist resposible for the carvings, the songs, the recording and retelling of history was well looked after by the tribe, so making money from art is our evolutionary right, i've always thought of those "artists" who try to be elitist, as the true sell outs, by denying their primal function in society they sell out their cultural heritage. (i'm refering mostly to the bands, and artists who knock others for making a go of it, or making money from their art, not the few who create for their own pleasure at home but still have the ability to support and nuture their fellow artisans)

:) i'm 35 and spike milligan is one of my heroes (RIP) - i'm flattered by those who think i'm a silly youngster :)

those people you mention who spouted my sort of clap-trap back in the 50s 60s... you ask where are they today? they've been overwhelmed / buried by mass produced culture :)

i base everything on my observations - sorry to sound obvious or dated - maybe the song remains the same - i'm an outsider - no tv no radio and seldom a conversation which involves tv or radio... the mainstream is a dull hell- and here i am peeking in / being reminded how derfensive and reactionary it can be - there are some contemporary bands i dig - there is a lot of over-hyped horse shit - no surprise

"a standard idealist rhetoric coated in emotive language" is still capable of being the truth... nice phrase - thanks for keeping words like imbecilic etc out of it :)

tut tut? did you take my comment on oysterbokie's sculpture the wrong way?

lena-oyster-monkey's facts are real? as real as any observation - but not necessarily factual

facts can be found to back up any way you look at something - true or false

i won't quit till i have you all seeing the world my way - mu ah ha harrr (is this how you read it?)

turn off your tvs and radios and go play your own heart-felt music to your friends

KEEP MONEY OUT OF ART - OR DON'T CALL IT ART

it's easy to do am impersonation of something popular
it's easy to mangle it a little and call it original
it's easy to get a crowd jumping when they're full of liquor - and sell em more liquor YAY
it's easy to be a clone of coldplay / jeff buckley / ben harper / nu-metal / hiphop / etc
it's easy to make a profit (even a relatively small profit is justifiable) off something that's had a heap of dollars spent marketting it
it's easy to spin off on a tangent and misunderstand my simple observations

Imitate.
Don’t be shy about it. Try to get as close as you can. You’ll never get all the way, and the separation might be truly remarkable. We have only to look to Richard Hamilton and his version of Marcel Duchamp’s large glass to see how rich, discredited, and underused imitation is as a technique.

:"Everything involves a relationship between the tangible and intangible"

On the button. Everthing affects everything else. Nothing is pure. We only extract as much meaning as we can be bothered finding.

(...passes spliff...)

// i'm flattered by those who think i'm a silly youngster.

Who ever said age and wisdom go hand in hand?
Age does not always equate experience, I grew up in a lighthouse family, we moved around a lot and had no television, by the time I was 12 i'd been more places and seen, learned and done more than most people ever will, it makes me rich in life experience, i'm 30 now but still would never be so arrogant as to call my self a wise man.

shit ed- i'm only gonna do this... as many times more as it amuses me

right on monkey puzzle!
- ¿YOU AGREE?- BUT MONKEY IS SAYING THAT PEOPLE THAT MAKE MUSIC DESERVE ALL THE CASH THEY GET

art shouldn't profit - that becomes prescription and shareholders will end up governing
if you wanna make a buck from something you've gotta sell out in some way
- PLATITUDE

- it's economics
making a buck requires that you find your target market and you give them what they want
- PLATITUDE

how can an artist explore their own personal response to the world while at the same time listen to the needs of their audience?
- ¿IS THIS WHAT ARTISTS DO?- or is this q arising from another platitude

punk used to say "fuck you" to their audience - remember?
- BULLSHIT- you weren't even around- so you can't really comment
shellac is the closest thing to this today.
- HAHAHA- sfunny

the band that stays true to their music will struggle to be heard
the band that picks up a genre and runs with it will be heroes
- PLATITUDE

good music can be mass-produced - just like mcdonalds is good for me
- everything in moderation- including mcd's & mung beans

isn't mcdonalds cleaning up its act? offering vegetarian options now? must be market forces... so hopefully this trend will emerge in mass-produced music - and we'll start getting streamlined vegetarian music for the masses any day now :)
- there is no healthy & unhealthy apps in music- it ain't like food in that respect- or ¿do you advocate censorship?

mass recording homogenizes the experience for the listener and strips away their chance to experience the full width and variety of the human response
- PLATITUDE

disney land is R-15 for example ... and big movie distributors won't import art-films because the mass appeal is limited
- true- but then 90%of those art films are totally mediocre- a lot of people aren't that kinda sucker

live music is where it's at - i dig it - and my best friends are all musicians :)

- more good honest bands who love what they do and have something to say
- less bands with ambition to "make it"
- keep your day job - and make music to keep you sane
let the band wagon pass you by
- these BANDS you hang with... maaaaan... ¿do they play to the public?- ¿do they advertise thes gigs?- ¿do they release cds?- ¿do they send videos to space &c?

making music is way better than listening to someone elses
- both are fantastic........... sonny- if you're so into originality- get yourself some other arguments- make them your own- read monkeys last post & learn- back up your platitudes