There seem to have been quite a few people logging in recently and spending most of their posts just slagging off bands.
I used to think that tall poppy syndrome was mainly just an excuse from musicians that couldn't take criticism, but now I've realised that there are a *lot* of people that can't stand to see a band they dislike doing well. The more successful the band is, the more the person hates them. Constructive criticism is one thing, accounting for taste is another, but a lot of the mudslinging really pisses me off.
So, what do you reckon?
Delicious
Digg
Reddit
Facebook
Google
Technorati
just dont take it seriously...until the ...
just dont take it seriously...until the review in whatever mag comes out confirming or not, any validity in the slaggings.
i dunno, i guess i let it all wash over
if you think what youre doing is good, then whats so and so's latest slaging really gonna mean to ya.
only certain peoples opinions mean anything to me
and theyre the ones i trust
// only certain peoples opinions mean ...
// only certain peoples opinions mean anything to me and theyre the ones i trust //
that's a good way of looking at it, but it's also unfortunate that you have to basically discount everyone else because of it, surely there has to be some kind of middle ground? i mean having a thick skin is one thing, but being completely detached?
MUD SLINGING IS THE LIFE BLOOD OF ANY ...
MUD SLINGING IS THE LIFE BLOOD OF ANY INDUSTRY.
AT BEST EXTREMELY HILLARIOUS
AT WORST A FEW DEROGATORY POSTS WOULD MERLY FORCE INDIVIDUALS TO CARE MORE ABOUT WHAT EVER IT IS THEY ARE DOING.
HEATHER DIE PLEASE.
One of the unintentionally positive ...
One of the unintentionally positive side effects of me witnessing that absolute shit is that if I ever do make it in a band, I'll realise how small-minded people can be, and that they're usually the most vocal - probably because all your fans get ripped apart every time they stand up for you.
I feel sorry for the bands that start coming here now though. It'd be hard not to feel gutted.
// I feel sorry for the bands that ...
// I feel sorry for the bands that start coming here now though. It'd be hard not to feel gutted. //
damn straight, what kind of message are we sending out to the world? "we don't even respect our own music, why the hell should you?"
a certain poster mentioned before in another topic that unjustified ego is what he has a problem with, i mean that's fair, but in a way it's the same thing that gives people the idea that they can rip into a band like that, that kind of highly critical snobbery is fully ego driven, it's like a child chucking it's toys "weh weh i hate suchandsuch weh weh!!"
That said tho mate, I don't expect ...
That said tho mate, I don't expect musicians to be able to live by a set of different standards. By the same token that I think we should treat them as relative equals due to the decidedly non-superstar status of music in NZ, they should realise that just because their band has gone gold in this country doesn't mean we are all minions to their wishes.
But undoubtedly we (as a nation) go overboard, hearsay as our ammunition etc "oh my second cousin's step-brother says he's an asshole." It's tempting to do and actually way more prevalent in NZ cos of the everyone-knows-everyone nature of this tiny country. Gutted.
I'm sure the world will one day be loving and peaceful.
// we should treat them as relative ...
// we should treat them as relative equals //
this is absolutely 100% correct, they should give their fans the same respect, but you'll find that most of them do, they are after all just regular shmoes like you and me, trying to make a living and have a bit of fun on the way
i'll be just as supportive of my friends as i am of the musicians and other artists i respect, the difference is that it's so common to tear down these public figures that they really do get a raw deal out of it, i don't know anyone that gets nearly as much shit as bands do on these forums. i mean, i never ever want to see another thread like the indicator dogs one, that was insane and way too over the top
but that said, some take it well, some - deja voodoo are an excellent example - actually thrive on it
// everyone-knows-everyone nature of this tiny country //
ha ha it's so true, pick out a random NZM username and you probably either already know them or know someone that knows them, etc etc, it's the 6 degrees of seperation thing, wheels within wheels my friend, wheels within wheels
// I'm sure the world will one day be loving and peaceful. //
well that's pretty unlikely but if you're lucky you can surround yourself with decent people, and that's a damn fine consolation
i think you already know where i stand ...
i think you already know where i stand on the matter snookie, i absolutely hate it!!
i love watching my peers succeed in what they do, as well as being really good for them, it gives me hope that i too can achieve my dreams if i work at them, these are just regular people trying to follow theirs
i mean come on, it's not like anyone can look at the music industry in NZ and call that the easy way out, you're not gonna make a shitload of money, hell, tadpole only earn about what an average IT worker earns
so do you reckon it's the recognition?
It always makes me laugh when bands I ...
It always makes me laugh when bands I don't like say "tall poppy syndrome is the only reason why we get dissed". Well okay, I'm not thinking of bands plural, I'm thinking of the feelers. I know the reason that I diss them is because waaay back when they had like two singles out, at the start of 1998 they played at my uni and they were just assholes who thought that we should all fall down at their feet and worship them - I felt the same when the Dead Flowers played a gig at Bands in the Square a million years ago - they were headlining but Second Child was on before them and they just blew them away musically and in terms of niceness too. If musicians come across as good people, then I want them to succeed. If they don't, then I don't. It's not 'Tall Poppy Syndrome', it's deservingness.
i agree mostly with what you're saying ...
i agree mostly with what you're saying there, it is a lot easier when you can believe that these are people you'd want to hang out with, but i don't think you should completely dismiss them if you don't like their personalities. You can still have integrity even if you're an asshole, and it's kind of unfair to lump everyone in the band into the "gah they suck" camp just because of the actions of one or two members.
after all it's not everyone's style to greet complete strangers with open arms, and nerves can do funny things to people, what may have seemed like an act of arrogance may have been nervousness on their part
spose i'm a believer in benefit of the doubt
At the same time though, I'll admit ...
At the same time though, I'll admit that I've heard that my favourite NZ band are really arrogant (oh look, there's that insider goss thing), and I can guess that's probably true, although their drummer was perfectly fine to interview, so I don't want to get close to them and find out that they are mean, because I love them too much from a distance. Plus I give them extra leeway because they're so obviously Rockstars that I allow them their egos.
(and on another note in regards to your comment about knowing other nzmusicers, I think I met you once, for a second, or at least you stood in the doorway of a room I was in. Don't worry, I don't expect you to remember me.)
heh, if you're talking about a certain ...
heh, if you're talking about a certain poppy band just making it big then you're right, they're nice people but they can't stop talking about themselves (which suits the media fine). they make fantastic music so i can't help but love em. actually the guitarist is totally down to earth, he's fine, and the old drummer is the same
re: doorway - was it in ponsonby/grey lynn? i've stood in so many doorways, i do kinda know who you are but i don't believe we've actually met properly
i'm thinking it was late last year, about august? and i was picking your then flatmate up to head out to a comedy show?
*looks at profile* nope i think i'm ...
*looks at profile*
nope i think i'm thinking of a different band - heh :)
It was a couple'o months ago Balmoral ...
It was a couple'o months ago Balmoral - you had a gig to do and I was doing make-up.
Hmmmm, I've had so many flatmates recently I don't know if that was a possibility or not that you came over then. Oh the mystery!
*click* yeah of course i remember ...
*click*
yeah of course i remember you (just took a bit of coaxing) yep i think that was about the only time we've met, pity you didn't come to the gig considering it was the one and only before an untimely demise, always sucks having to say goodbye to songs you spent all that time working on
huh.. i went to that bandz in the ...
huh.. i went to that bandz in the square. i talked to the dead flowers and they were incredibly nice... oh well.
Exactly what Joanna said. I used to ...
Exactly what Joanna said.
I used to go to school with Gene and Jon from Rubicon - They're okay musically and Jon was a great guy but Gene was a really sod in high school - an abusive bully who used to belittle anyone for the smallest of actions. What sucked was the fact I didn't mind their music, despite being against that kind of commercial pop bollocks, but the minute I found out it was Gene Bennett in the band, I wanted to sew my ears shut whenever Rubicon came on.
I guess I like bands based on what their members are like. I'm a musician myself and practise in the same studio as 8 Foot Sativa does. Whilst I'm not a fan of that sort of metal, the guys in the band are really down to earth and so friendly - it's actually made me more supportive of them as musicians and though I'm unlikely to hit one of their gigs, I'd never slag them off.
yeah. what he said. that's pretty ...
yeah. what he said.
that's pretty much our bottom line as a small independent label. the music could out-of-this-world-fantastic but if you can't sit in a room with them without getting white knuckles... WTF?
...and complaining about tall poppy syndrome on chatboards is like discussing why your eyes hurt when you stare at the sun too long...
"I'm addicted to making records, not ...
"I'm addicted to making records, not making friends", "Impossible" - Infinto
yesterday i watch the posts from one ...
yesterday i watch the posts from one particular user i hadn't seen before log into just under ten artist topics and slag them all off. Why go to that amount of effort?
i figure people can like what they want to....i might not agree that it's for me (and i try to back up my arguments with valid resons!) but that doesn't mean i think they are "wrong".
i think the best part of NZ music is that i can have a spirited debate about something with people that know what they're talking about.
there are people that come here for the sole purpose of bagging groups and other users (i admit i'm guilty to the second...but in jest!). hell i try to ignore them!
// and i try to back up my arguments ...
// and i try to back up my arguments with valid resons! //
that's integrity for ya, an argument isn't an argument without a point
besides, everyone is entitled to their opinion, however it becomes a problem when suchandsuch becomes some kind of a scapegoat
// other users (i admit i'm guilty to the second...but in jest!) //
haha guess i have to plead guilty also, sometimes it's appealing to tell someone that tool sucks, and tell someone else that preppies are people too, but it's all in the name of fun, i wouldn't say something nearly as scathing as some of the trolling posts out there, nor would i get personal, as a lot of these tall poppy flames tend to do
// some kind of middle ground ...
// some kind of middle ground //
yeah, i agree grimmy...but to re-iterate, this middle ground can lead to middle of the road music...without saying im in complete denial of whats going on musically and critically in this country, and in the world, i dont believe everything i read, and id hate to care so much about the opinion of the critics and reviewers and the general buzz of whatever musical movement is currently hip, that i end up catering to anyone eles's musical tastes or beliefs...but i am aware.
A lot of the shit that has been going ...
A lot of the shit that has been going down on these boards lately has been less tall poppy lopping and more personal vendetta. For mine, I would prefer that this sort of behaviour was kept out of the public eye. When it degenerates into the sort of name-calling and mud-slinging that we have seen lately I worry for the future of these boards.
On a more general note, there will always be those who prefer to attack an achiever simply for achieving. In most cases these losers have little hope of emulating the achievments of others so they attempt to bolster their own self esteem by taking anonymous pot-shots at whatever target pops its head over the parapet. And this is not restricted just to little ole NZ. The Aussies are past masters at the art of tall-poppy lopping. And the Brit tabloids do the old double-act; build up the target and then smash it to pieces when they "discover" that the idol has feet of clay. I think we also saw an element of this during the American Idol series ... contestants who are supposedly being judged on their artistic merits dropped like hot potatoes when a little skeleton pops its shiny white cranium out of the closet.
BUT ... any artist or performer who puts their work into the public arena must be prepared for the worst. There will always be ill-informed criticism, no matter how good or bad a performance is. It would be lovely for all concerned if 'twas all sweetness and light ... but opinions will vary on the quality of a particular performance. So artists have to be prepared to accept that there will be those who do not like the performance. But this is no excuse for personal attacks on the individuals concerned. Particularly anonymous attacks ... at least have the balls to identify yourself to your target ... show the courage of your convictions. But then most losers suffer from a distinct lack of courage, don't they?
gee, stu, i'd say most human beings ...
gee, stu, i'd say most human beings suffer a distinct lack of courage in voicing their opinions... those who don't are definitely the least well liked... and humans are social animals. why not take advantage of the anonymity provided by this site and slag away.
it certainly makes me feel better about myself... and that can only be a good thing.
please don't tell me you come here to recieve informed and intelligent dialogue coz as far as i can tell you, me and spiralstairs are the only people here with any brains...
gee, stu, i'd say most human beings ...
gee, stu, i'd say most human beings suffer a distinct lack of courage in voicing their opinions... those who don't are definitely the least well liked... and humans are social animals. why not take advantage of the anonymity provided by this site and slag away.
it certainly makes me feel better about myself... and that can only be a good thing.
please don't tell me you come here to recieve informed and intelligent dialogue coz as far as i can tell, you, me and spiralstairs are the only people here with any brains...
Gee, Stu, I'd say that most people ...
Gee, Stu, I'd say that most people suffer a distinct lack of courage when it comes to voicing their opinions... those who don't are generally the least well liked... and humans are social animals. Why not take advantage of the anonymity this site provides and slag away ad infinitum. It certainly makes me feel better about myself. I work in the nz music industry so, hell, this is therapy. But please don't tell me that you come here for informed and intelligent dialogue because, as far as I can tell, you, me and spiralstairs are by far the only intelligent people within miles of this place...
... and fuck I hate computers...
... and fuck I hate computers
Hmm. Perhaps by labeling the situation ...
Hmm. Perhaps by labeling the situation as "Tall Poppy Syndrome" we are making it more of an issue that it should be. We place more emphasis on it because it is more defined and then we generalise. The boundaries of TPS become wider as change comes into play.
You give it a name and you give it more power over its opposite position. You give it attention. Give both names and you lose the grey. Double edged swords. I think in circles.
I was just thinking about tall poppy ...
I was just thinking about tall poppy syndrome a few days ago. I reckon it's like this:
A band starts out and most people who give them feedback are friends, family members or fans, so it's going to be largely positive because it's often hard to be blunt with someone you know well or really like.
So then the band gets successful and more and more people know about them. By then the band is thinking that if they've got that level of success without major negative criticism, they must have earned it through hard work and talent.
But their new success means more people know about them. People who aren't friends, family members or fans. People who have no reason to be nice. So when such a person offers some blunt criticism, it comes as a shock to the band. They figure that because they've only had such criticism after they became famous and successful, then the critic must be criticising them only because they are famous and successful, and therefore it is tall poppy syndrome. Boohoo, etc.
---
Ok, then there's the thing where people are coming here and slagging off bands that they hate. I think that's just a symptom of being a certain age. I remember when I madly, passionately loved all my favourite bands and disgustingly, revoltingly despised all my least favourite bands. I grew out of it, others will too.
Like, I'm not a huge fan of Elemeno P's music, but I have some respect for them because they make cool videos, they've managed to get an album that's selling really well and they have many happy fans. If I was, say, 14, I'd probably be spewing about how much I hated them, but I'm twice as old as that so I'm, like rool mature about it.
Robyn these people are not all 14 years ...
Robyn these people are not all 14 years old. That's what is sad.
I just pulled 14 out of my creative ...
I just pulled 14 out of my creative arse an example of an age at which people say stupid stuff in defense of their favourite bands.
It does not surprise me that people who are older than 14 also do that.
//I just pulled 14 out of my creative ...
//I just pulled 14 out of my creative arse an example of an age at which people say stupid stuff in defense of their favourite bands.
Yeah, I realise that - I just mean you wouldn't really choose, say, 36 as a likely age example of that type of action. It is a mark of immaturity.... you said "I grew out of it, others will too." - well, you would think so, but that doesn't seem the case in these forums, or amongst my musically interested acquantainces either.
//It does not surprise me that people who are older than 14 also do that
It doesn't surprise me, but it saddens and sort of disgusts me.
"what doesn't kill you, only makes you ...
"what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger"
embrace tall poppy syndrome.
I think it's what makes nzer's super achievers. putting up with so much shit as soon as you stick your neck out, those who deal with it and channel it will succeed.
not always tall poppy- that's assuming ...
not always tall poppy- that's assuming that the object criticized is a beautiful flower- more often it's a noxious festering weed
I think we are free to feel whatever we ...
I think we are free to feel whatever we want to, with absolutely no need to justify the reasons to anyone else. And we can come here and (usually) say whatever we feel with absolute fredom.
Tall Poppy Syndrome is when a persom feels a need to justify the way they feel by pointing to the 'undeserved success' of someone else, which really has nothing to do with the music- it's about feeling self-righteous enough to have any say on what's deserved or not, and most people have no qualification to offer any such comment. I think it really lowers the relevance of any discussion on NZ music.
I also think it's certainly nothing new, and most NZ musicians learn to live with it. I agree with Blink in that it can make someone more autonomous, or force a musician to keep their reasons for entering the music industry well defined and well argued- It can really sort out those who are trully passionate about their craft from the rest. Still, you have to wonder about all we're missing out on as a result.
good skills man, nicely put. i think ya ...
good skills man, nicely put. i think ya got two things going on here: music, which is just music, and then you got the forums about it.... it aint part of the music, its merely words for poking peoples in the eyes (if you so wish).
X, did you go to Glenfield College? So ...
X, did you go to Glenfield College? So did I - I was the same year as Gene from Rubicon as well - I agree with your outlook on him though.
Jonathan was a good guy though, wasn't he? Funny as hell.
So - who were/are you?
Any criticism of a band should be based ...
Any criticism of a band should be based on the qulaity of thier music, surely, not some personal vendetta against the band members or disgust for this little country in general. Persoanlly I don't give a toss about how nice band members are or how good they are to their fans - they could be complete assholes for all I care. There are plenty of bands in NZ that have success that I regard as really bad or amateur, but I don't begrudge them that success , I just don't want ot waste my time listening to them and get anoyed that radio programmers play them to death to avoid playing other stuff of greater merit.
If people get the warm fussies by connecting with a bands members then good for them but I don't see what thats got to do with music.
Ever been to a gig?...
Ever been to a gig?
yes most gigs are shit, even from ...
yes
most gigs are shit, even from bands you like - admit it, live music is only cool if you've got some weirdo infatuation with the band itself or are in it for the 'performance' - the music will never sound as good as their records.
Only the very best bands can pull it off live convincingly, and NZ bands that could do that are well behind us now.
What happens when a band sounds like ...
What happens when a band sounds like crap on a record but really great live?
I disagree, I prefer a lot of bands ...
I disagree, I prefer a lot of bands live stuff compared with recorded. Mother Guru is a good example for me, I don't really like their CD but really enjoy their gigs. Mo has an incredible voice & I don't really think the CD captures it. I don't think I've been to a gig I could call shit (yet, I admit I haven't gone to many yet) The energy and actual show can make up for if the sounds aren't great. Although, I haven't been to a gig with shit sound yet either.
I like how bands sound different live ...
I like how bands sound different live than on CD.
You might as well stay home and listen to CD than going to see them live
not to mention that if a song keeps ...
not to mention that if a song keeps developing after it's been recorded you're selling yourself short by listening to an old and often inferior version - good example of this is goldenhorse, dark forest is a pretty ho hum track on the record, don't get me wrong, it's good, but live it is astounding, and this is because it's been quite some time since they actually recorded
it's evolution baby!
Forget my last posts, I have nothing to ...
Forget my last posts, I have nothing to say.
I havn't listened to or seen any live music for months, been studying for hellish exams every night and to be honest, don't really give a damn about nz music at present except for stuff that hardly anyone ever mentions.
New dimmer album? nope lets talk about Elemeo P or your fav. Incubus song. Coooool.
left the computer while typing and a ...
left the computer while typing and a whole lot you posted.
oops
Name a truly great gig in the last 2 years ( and no, appearences at real Groovy don't count)
is there a new dimmer album then?...
is there a new dimmer album then?
seeing as we are talking about live ...
seeing as we are talking about live versus recorded i'd have to say phoenix foundation have got both bases covered and both domains sound completely different for them. recorded they are sweet and mellow, live they are dynamic and groovy and hellishly tight. caught their gig in chch tonight and it was the best gig in this town for a long time. so, in my humble opinion, you have to experience both to get a true picture of a great band coz both can be so different. and should be different too... bands that go out to sound live like they do recorded are kinda boring... don't you think?
That last Shihad at Valve gig was truly ...
That last Shihad at Valve gig was truly great.
Thank you grimmybug Yes there is, ...
Thank you grimmybug
Yes there is, and it was supposed to be release mid 2003ish but in typical Carter style probably won't be until 2020.
A single for it's been released though I dont' know how often it gets played (on bfm, naturally)