There was a time when NZ rock had what you could call a sound to call it's own. Most obviously this manifested itself in the sparingly produced dunedin sound, however the streak ran throughout NZ rock, from the enz through the offbeat humour and sparse sound of Don McGlashans earlier work (from his songs with the blams through the front lawn and early muttonbirds).
This eccentric sound, while never selling in great numbers overseas, has always tended to build up a cult following, with dunedin sound bands such as the clean and the tall dwarfs building a name for themselves on the US college circuit in the late 80's/early 90's (including being a major influence on pavement, one of the greatest bands of the 90's). Split Enz are still loved today in the UK, and have people like Eddie Vedder dropping their name. The muttonbirds also had a strong audience in the UK.
Now contrast all these bands which run against the grain of US/UK musical development, and their successes, to bands which have had success in NZ, using ostensibly american or british styles. Dave Dobbyn, Tim Finn, Shihad, Dragon, Th' Dudes, Hello Sailor. These are all bands which, while they do have some reasonable vestiges of songwriting ability, have failed to add anything the slightest bit "kiwi" to their music. Dragon and Th' Dudes broke up after failing to crack aussie. certainly none of them have had even the slightest bit of impact in UK or US. Yet these bands have all been more popular in NZ (with the exception of the enz, who hold an exalted position in NZ music akin to that of the beatles over the whole of rock music).
which brings me to the pathetic state of NZ music at the moment. Every NZ band on the radio seems to be blatantly imitating some sort of overseas style, be it nu-metal (the appalling bland-spott), boring pop-rock (shihad), dull pop (Bic Rungas latest album was a terrible disappointment. After a stunning debut, she travels to the US to record and be homogenized like the rest), or merely have been simply by-the numbers (is it just me or has Tim Finns entire solo career been totally unremarkable, and basically shit, not to mention Dobbyns hideous last effort, hopetown, which destroyed even the allure of his best album- the islander- for me). The boring pop-rock doesnt stop with the "down with originality" torchbearers shihad either. Fur Patrol, The Feelers, Tadopole, Zed, Weta, the list goes on.
Unfortunately, turning to indie music no longer allows any scope for NZ influence in music either. Indie in NZ, apart from the groups that survive from the dunedin sound days, simply consists of copies of overseas trends in indie music. These bands actually tend to be good, but will still fail to stand out on the international music scene. eg HDU, Dimmer, and a few of my fave chch bands such as pine, minisnap and substandard.
the NZ music community should be embarrased that the only NZ bands currently gaining overseas recognition, the D4 and the datsuns, are among the worst, and least original, examples of the "retro rock" craze. They are completely and utterly blown out of the water by the hives, who do modern garage punk better than anyone, and the strokes and the white stripes are on such an entirely different level that they shouldn't really be compared to each other.
Interestingly, the d4 are on flying nun, which brings me to my next point, wtf do those fucking morons at flying nun think they're doing, completely fucking up what was, until about 4 years ago, a brilliant, original record label. If we take a quick look at the recent 21st birthday compilation of flying nun stuff, we get the old hands (the clean, shayne carter, tall dwarfs), a glimpse of what could have been a great new era in NZ music, but fizzled (the 3D's are covered, include Bailter Space in this category), one great modern band that gets almost no advertising (HDU) and, surprise surprise, a whole lotta bands that add absolute fuck all to the pantheon of NZ music: the d4, panam, and betchadupa. If this is all the greatest bastion of NZ music can produce for the 00's then we're all fucked.
To wrap up this overly long post that noone will read. The only way New Zealanders can hope to be heard overseas is through originality, the development of our own sound. We'll never beat the Americans at their own game, we simply don't have the money, nor bands good enough at that kind of music to do it. (ask yourself if shihad really stand up to popular rock bands in the US such as the foo fighters or Queens of the Stone Age).
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i totally agree with u dude!!! But i ...
i totally agree with u dude!!! But i was horribly critised when i made the same comment in a much more *vulgar* style..... :(
haha more vulgar that *that* good work!...
haha more vulgar that *that* good work!
Each to their own, dude. You've ...
Each to their own, dude. You've explained yourself well, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly.
Each to their own, dude. You've ...
Each to their own, dude. You've explained yourself well, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly.
...damned double-posting......
...damned double-posting...
I agree with a few parts of your (very ...
I agree with a few parts of your (very bold) statement. For example I can feel, and do share, your anger at the americanisation of what was once a very, very ruling and original kiwi style. Not something I can put into words, but I'm sure all keen kiwi music listeners can understand, just a certain rawness and distinct flavour, but not something which could be categorised.
However I STRONGLY disagree with your comments about dave dobbyn, bic runga and tim finn not being the slightest bit kiwi in their sound. I would even go as far as to say that if someone asked me to name kiwi artists who best represented/reflected nz in their music, then those three would certainly come to mind right away. Off the top of my head, (excuse the cheesy examples) what about "whaling", or "listening for the weather", which I think are two prime examples of distinct kiwi flavour.
And after wowing us with her stunning songwriting and musicianship, if bic wants to fuck off overseas somewhere to find more inspiration (and perhaps money- should we deny brilliant musicians a decent living?) then lets not be greedy and get all pissed off and sour because we can't keep her all to ourselves. Let the bird fly free. Oh, and I fucking LOVE pacifier, albeit their older stuff appeals to me far more, but I don't think they've been de-kiwi'd yet.
oI understand you're point there about ...
oI understand you're point there about Tim Finn and Dave Dobbyn. I'd say that they do have a new zealand sound, but the vast majority of what they release sucks balls. Bic Rungas latest album was very americanised, and sounded like shit to boot.
oI understand you're point there about ...
oI understand you're point there about Tim Finn and Dave Dobbyn. I'd say that they do have a new zealand sound, but the vast majority of what they release sucks balls. Bic Rungas latest album was very americanised, and sounded like shit to boot.
well bro, that's a completely ...
well bro, that's a completely different argument in itself isn't it? If you think they sound like arse then good for you, I don't particularly get into tim finn myself. Glad we've made that distinction though ;)
Do you think that there is a tendency ...
Do you think that there is a tendency to focus the artists? What about the state of the music industry at the tim? Whats happening behind-the-scenes? An artist is only ever going to play the music they play- global exposure Split Enz-style has less to do with the originality of their songs than we may give them credit for. Great management, contacts locally and abroad, the entire business end of things is seperate to the originality of the music, in my opinion, and the fact that we can all recall a heyday for a particular group of bands all under the one record label (Flying Nun) pretty much confirms it- I'm not saying the music wasn't equally as good, not at all. It's just that when someone makes a comment about how crap they think the NZ music of today is, and then points to a period in the past as an example of how good things should be running, they gloss over the fact that times have and will always continue to change. Where's the context?
I just think the alleged 'originality' argument is a total farse. That is purely your unique, subjective opinion. There is no such thing as universally original sounding music. And there are plenty of examples of bands which you or I may consider 'original' which will never enjoy commercial success.
Don't you think there's more to it than this?
Actually I would slightly disagree with ...
Actually I would slightly disagree with one point there, about global exposure not impacting on originality- I hope I haven't missed your point here, it's hard sometimes. But I would say that global exposure would definitely have an impact on the artist's originality, based simply on the idea that our surrounding environment has a definite influence on our thoughts, emotions etc.
Well, it's only natural that as an ...
Well, it's only natural that as an artists music becomes globally successful that their immediate context begins to change- more income, better producers, engineers, management, moving overseas. But that is not to say that all artists who become successful are then homogenised by their success, right?
blah blah blah, it all comes down to ...
blah blah blah, it all comes down to personal taste, while 'you' (anyone) may not like the '00' bands like d4 etc that are getting support, airplay and overseas interest - there are heaps of people who are stoked that they are doing well, thats just a taste thing...each to his own.
So what if the bands you like don't get supported? Most bands in NZ seem to fund their own projects anyway - so the music is still available, does any of this really matter anyway? A select few bands will rise, and we all will have relatively little impact on which ones do,
Its all BS
Respect...
Respect
this has nothing to do with taste. I ...
this has nothing to do with taste. I dissed many bands i like in there, along with all the shit.
I don't think it should be a ...
I don't think it should be a requirement of kiwi musicians to make music that's "distinctly New Zealand". All musicians let their influences show through their music. Why shouldn't they be allowed to write what they like?
It's the industry that dictates that the most popular (ie, not necessarily the "best" or the "most original") bands will get funding, record deals and potential overseas interest. Nature of the beast.
I don't set out to make 'New ...
I don't set out to make 'New Zealand' stuff, I just make stuff.
thats so true! :) good point...
thats so true! :)
good point
Wicked. Agreed....
Wicked. Agreed.
of course not. But if you're a new ...
of course not. But if you're a new zealander, and you have an original sound, then that is a new zealand sound. that's pretty basic logic.
then how can you define the 'New ...
then how can you define the 'New Zealand' sound? If every band is original like you say, we must all have different sounds - and then that contradicts the comments about 'shit NZ bands' getting promoted and carrying on the legacy of the old classic bands..
doesn't the 'sound' rely on the gear ...
doesn't the 'sound' rely on the gear used to produce the music?
and isn't it no surprise that the seriously primo pedal the hotcake is made in dunners and used around the world? not to mention many nz muso's who can afford the nz 'sound' lable? and if they didn't own one of them it'd probably be a big muff or something classified as original??
mark my wild guess.
even our recording processes are bettering themselves every year.
The hotcake is made in auckland....
The hotcake is made in auckland.
paul crowther makes hotcakes- ...
paul crowther makes hotcakes- ¿hillsborough somewhere?- coupla years since i drove to his house
I think it is a shame that local bands ...
I think it is a shame that local bands are given the kind of expectations you deman of them spiralstairs. It is such a challenge for bands from such a small country as New Zealand to reach the kind of musical proficiency of the old enz and overseas industry giants like the aforementioned qotsa/white stripes etc.
However there is a great amount of talent waiting in the wings in our little country and I am sure we will be able to herald another wave of great badns. I agree that the D4 and Datsuns are pretty pale compared with their overseas peers but at least we can be proud of them for doing what they have. Kiwi music is certainly "on the map" again overseas and all we need now is for some great bands to show their faces, and I am sure they are out there ^_^
Ok spiral. What do we do about it bro? ...
Ok spiral. What do we do about it bro? Come on, give us some ideas instead of pissing in the wind.
i think the best option is for new ...
i think the best option is for new zealand to become a state of america.
I got really scared when I heard ...
I got really scared when I heard someone talking about a proposal to adopt the greenback as our currency... it was bad enough when they abolished the 1c coin (the dairy up the road did 1c mixtures...) ...Oh man, I don't mean to sound so old!! *slapping sense into himself*
Spiralstairs, the comparisons you draw ...
Spiralstairs, the comparisons you draw between NZ bands and overseas bands are definitely your own. I don't quite understand your meaning of originality, or a uniquely New Zealand sound either.
How's this for a definition of 'The New Zealand Sound': Any similarities between all current NZ bands.
See, the problem with that is that what ends up being proclaimed as The New Zealand Sound has very little to do with originality, eh? It's an oversimplification of a country with a myriad of diverse musical styles. It's also quite a destructive term, prohibiting creativity outside of a certain set of parameters, and not acknowledging in the slightest what other musicians are up to from around the world.
As a musician myself, I just cannot deliberately set out to write something that sounds New Zealandery. I play the music in my soul, and the world can take it or leave it.
I say that New Zealand's music industry is WAY too small to be in it for anything other than the love of it. So stop with the tall poppy stuff- man, it's so tiring to even type about it.
Wow - this is one of the best cans of ...
Wow - this is one of the best cans of worms ever!!! Fantastic!!! But although you've made some good points, and you've made them really well, there are couple of areas where I think your argument falls over and it has left me wondering if you are not so much the torch bearer for originality as you are a late eighties - early nineties indie/flying nun-head who is finding it a little hard to relate to the current musical climate.
Flying Nun has always supported great music - but they have also signed alot of shit - even in the so called golden era - Does anybody recall how fuckin' unoriginal and cheesey the Headless Chickens became? I also think it is a question of balance, Flying Nun are business and if they need the D4 to be successful so they can fund the brilliant (And yes very original) HDU then why not? Maybe thats why so many great bands that you mention have fallen to bits, because the record co. didn't have the funds to keep them going when they we're never going to make money for them in the first place. If flying nun are going to persue success on one hand to fund innovation on the other then I have high hopes for the future - I think we just need to wait for their chickens (Or cash cows as the case may be) to come home to roost before it will happen.
Secondly - Shihad - Now you will find NO argument from me about their latest album - it suffers from the exact syndrome that you are talking about - Unoriginal americanised shit. But this same band has been responsible for some really great stuff in the past - In particular 'Kiljoy' - That album IS totally original, There's no band on planet earth that sounds like that - It was lauded internationally. I believe it is a shining example of originality in NZ music.
Also I heard from a friend of mine who worked at the record co. that the Foo Fighters guys we're terrified to go on after shihad at the big day out a couple of years ago - They we're that good. So yes Shihad (Not Pacifier) are totally capable of kicking international butt and thats why they haven't recently because they chose to make a completely unoriginal record when they could have made a great one in it's place.
I agree with you about the other bands like tadpole, blindspot etc. etc. but Fur Patrol have that welli quirkiness that I like about Split enz and the McGlashan stuff - Don't think that call is fair.
Tim Finn, Dave Dobyn etc. These guys are past their prime - Tim in particualr made a huge contribution - let the poor bastard rest - Dave on the other hand has ditched the bottle and found God - there's your originality out the window.
Bic - We'll one Good nice album followed by one boring nice album does not an artist define - give girl the benefit of the doubt for the future.
The Datsuns / D4 - You are right here. There is not an original bone in their bodys but these guys will live and die by the coat tails they're riding - and it won't be long. I have been amazed by the Datsuns success - they're a 3rd rate Deep Purple clone, at least the D4 have the courtesy to leave the organ out of it.
That being said - It doesn't matter does it really - who does it hurt if they do well? no - one.
There are a couple of places that NZ originality could really thrive - The HDU style indie Noise thing and the NZ Hip Hop scene are both elements out there that could really take off - some of it may not seem that way but something like King Kapisi is really fresh to International ears and could only happen in NZ.
[ http://bigmunkyballs.com ]
// There are a couple of places that NZ ...
// There are a couple of places that NZ originality could really thrive
if there is a truly original band then any band doing anything somewhat similar usually comes off as a poor ripoff. no matter how much more 'original' it is than what anyone else is doing.
your band has already sold out.
Well have to agree fully with at least ...
Well have to agree fully with at least one point . Extremely hard to compete with the AMERICAN DOLLAR . At International music festivals , Australiasian music is often pushed to the side ( Not even heard ) as its presentation ( the CD Artwork etc ) is labeled budget . More often than not has nothing to do with whats on the disc . When they do get to the disc thankfully they tend not to find the god awfal highly overproduced - no dynamic - brain dead stuff you find on American music . New Zealand should not try and chase that sound , there budget alone will suggest they will do it badly . New Zealand's Trinity Roots and ( Yes I am bias) Deborah Wai Kapohe are on the right tracks , define your own sound , let the public decide if its them also ( thats another American Money topic unfortunately ) . Thanks for listening , I hope I was able to make my point clear ? Go New Zealand music .
http://www.ringtroutcds.com/AmericanClone.asp
Third verse of this song is dedicated to Moana and the Moa Hunters .
An yes we have attended buying festivals and have heard what the international buyers have to say .
[ http://www.mp3.com.au/deborahwaikapohe/ ]
who are you people? and why do you even ...
who are you people? and why do you even give a fuck? original? ooh....gosh, is it possible to be original?...lets get lost in that one for a while eh? "selling out" ... you cocks, if we we're selling out, whos buying them all? and send them over here ....fucks sake.... small cuntree syndrome
hi. im carl....
hi. im carl.
// cuntree i've never heard of ...
// cuntree
i've never heard of that. is that some kind of plant?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha...
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahaha
funny
first of all hey anarc. I see what ...
first of all hey anarc.
I see what you guys are talking about with the whole problem with a 'new zealand sound'. It kind of misses my point though, as i kinda did (you may have realised i got a little carried away). Basically it's this: There is so much talk about new zealand music at the moment, it has a higher profile in the media than it has ever had, and in particular talk about bands "cracking america". However the bands that are hyped to do this in NZ tend to be very americanised. How do we expect our music to stand out from the crowd when it sounds the same as a thousand US bands, who don't have an ocean between them and their target audience. Past examples prove my point, the clean, the enz, and even the tall dwarfs have a cult following abroad, where the most a US soundalike band would ever be able to wangle would be a one hit wonder, OMC style.
To understand what you are you must ...
To understand what you are you must first be what you are not.
Life is never constant. From peace can ...
Life is never constant. From peace can rise chaos. And from chaos the most beautiful silence.
Patience is a foresight well earnt and plentiful.
Don't jive the bunny when you meant to rock the roll.
Points so short can cheapen thought so much I feel like a slut.
sorry about the double post :( these ...
sorry about the double post :( these boards need an edit feature
"we're selling out, whos buying them all?"
selective quote from billy marilli's post (he's a prophet)
actually, dragon had quite a few gold ...
actually, dragon had quite a few gold and platinum albums and singles in aussieland.not that i'm a big fan of them, but a reasonable memory and a little research could have avoided the "bombed in aussie" statement.i think sometimes we don't really know how popular some of our bands become overseas.
Is it just me, or does everyone here ...
Is it just me, or does everyone here assume that ALL american music is shit and over produced.
It strikes me strangely that, i dunno, we all listen to it?
Why does "originality" get brought down to a country?
Who giz a fuck if it sounds like "New Zealand" or not? if all NZ music sounded like "New Zealand" then new zealand wouldnt produce much if any original bands, would it?
Maybe the New Zeland sound is a label of "we dont have the equipment / experience to produce recorded music as high QUALITY as other countries... (AMERICA! AMERICA! AMERICA!)
Stop comparing our country's bands to another country's (AMERICA!) bands.
just be proud we have music and artists that is / are good enough to be recognized all over the world (AMERICA!)
when i posted a similar post as this ...
when i posted a similar post as this dude, i got dissed badly!!!! It's not fair i tell u!
that's cos nobody likes you monkey boy...
that's cos nobody likes you monkey boy
If you watch the Give it a Whirl ...
If you watch the Give it a Whirl documentary, it becomes obvious that 'New Zealand sound' is derived from the influences of overseas, moulded by local culture of their time. This is still true today, and much of the music in other cultures is probably developed in the same way.
Being a young country, it is difficult to develop a unique culture and identity without the ability to be isolated for a lengthy period of time. As it has become easier for ideas and information to be exchanged, the influences from outside the local culture has become more prominent. Unfortunately, history tends to only show the highlights of times past, compress experiences and distort context. Many of the lesser bands seem to have been forgotten.
Perhaps, a better argument is: The range of experiences for current musicians in not as great as those had by the musicians of yore.
//Bic Rungas latest album was a terrible disappointment. After a stunning debut, she travels to the US to record and be homogenized like the rest
Homogenised, or over-processed? Perhaps what makes part of the 'New Zealand sound' is a sparse and basic recordings technique.
//the NZ music community should be embarrased that the only NZ bands currently gaining overseas recognition, the D4 and the datsuns, are among the worst, and least original, examples of the "retro rock" craze.
Should we be embarrassed? Although, perhaps not the most 'original' bands, they have re-emphasised the importance of stage presence and show for young musicians in New Zealand. They have also achieved what seemed like an impossible feat before they left New Zealand.
//But if you're a new zealander, and you have an original sound, then that is a new zealand sound. that's pretty basic logic.
Assuming this logic, would you consider Nathan Haines to be creating a 'New Zealand' sound? After all, he is a New Zealander, with a strong London jazz culture influence, creating original music.
//A select few bands will rise, and we all will have relatively little impact on which ones do,
Why should it be assumed that we will have relatively little impact? If you don't believe in achieving the near impossible, then there is even less chance of obtaining it.
//Australiasian music is often pushed to the side ( Not even heard ) as its presentation ( the CD Artwork etc ) is labeled budget . More often than not has nothing to do with whats on the disc.
Then this is an area where New Zealanders can be innovative and approach the task differently to the standard method.
I think that it is very hard to avoid ...
I think that it is very hard to avoid an "American" connection when discussing modern music. Virtually everything we hear is influenced in some way by music that came via America. And that music has a lot of its roots back in Africa ... so much of what we call rock and pop these days is based on the jazz and blues and spirtuals of the black slaves in the good ole US of A.
Lennon and Mcartney, Jagger and Richard et al were all hugely influenced by "american" music. And the world of rock and pop is all the better for it.
I am not suggesting that this is the only influence, but it is significant and unavaoidable.
And in todays world it is well nigh impossible to avoid being influenced by what is happening overseas ... in any endeavour. And I think that it would be true to say that every musician is influenced by the music that they enjoy ... not to say that they reproduce an exac clone of it, but the very fact that you enjoy a particular song, or album or artist is going to influence your own material.
I could go on, but it is cold and my fingers are numb.
True. But then again, what a different ...
True. But then again, what a different world if all our "media" wasnt fed to us via america. I mean, imagine (if we spoke the language) it was from japan? There is a fuck load of good japanese music out there im sure. They have their own superstars etc.
Pah, now im completely off topic. i think.
//There is a fuck load of good japanese ...
//There is a fuck load of good japanese music out there im sure. //
True, but even so one of the primary influences on "Jap Rock," for want of a better term, is still our trusty and well-beloved Rock'n'Roll ...
Someone mentioned the Hives in a previous post ... my memory may be playing tricks on me (not sure if it is the cold weather or just aging) but I recall reading an article about them and their promary ifluences were all american. Like it or not in there is simply a huge historical influence that emanates from america.
while the "dunedin sound" is remembered ...
while the "dunedin sound" is remembered with fond memories...we should see it for what it was....ignored at the time, poorly produced and shit sounding quirky tracks.these groups were TRYING to be like their overseas rivals but didn't have the gear,money, record company support to do it. a group is always a reflection of their influences. while the kiwi bands of the eighties bring a surge of warm fuzzy thoughts these days....how many indie tracks have withstood the test of time? i can only think of a handful...death and the maiden being at the top of my list.
the state of NZ music is the best it's been for years, and all this despite the opinion of the poster. question....is a bands talent inversly related to wether they can afford to eat? NZ hip hop is the genre that is carrying the torch today and i wish them well! we can't (and shouldn't) turn back the clock....if you don't like what kiwi bands are doing today...don't listen! go back to dusty lp's of thin, crap sounding dunedin recording sessions....i know i'll keep going to gigs and supporting kiwi bands such as;
fur patrol, shihad, nesian mystik, pluto, golden horse, pan am, elemeno P, etc etc
Nz music is an evolution!
//these groups were TRYING to be like ...
//these groups were TRYING to be like their overseas rivals but didn't have the gear,money, record company support to do it
rubbishio! ask anyone who adores this time period of NZ music and they will call many of the musicians trend-setters rather than followers. ask the people who were inspired by them to make music in turn! sure, there are *some* similarities between some early kiwi bands and what they were listening to, but none more so than there are these days. rubbishio!
//how many indie tracks have withstood the test of time? i can only think of a handful...death and the maiden being at the top of my list.
subjective argument. if i argued the same conclusion from my point of view (which is listening to late 70s/80s/90s mainly-Dunedin music constantly every day for the last 10+ years), it would be a subjective argument too. and many people would rate a Clean track over Death & the Maiden, and i'd possibly count Graeme Downes among those people too.
//question....is a bands talent inversly related to wether they can afford to eat?
just cos a track sounds "thin, crap sounding" doesn't mean the people making it are on the breadline. i love low-fi. it's a huge industry, really it is.