whats this about racism in the NZ music industry??? id have to agree with the PC BS here but we are all one, we should all be given = opps. regardless of race.
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whats this about racism in the NZ music industry??? id have to agree with the PC BS here but we are all one, we should all be given = opps. regardless of race.
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I don't want to knock you sam for ...
I don't want to knock you sam for bringing up this topic, its relevent and will interest many people, so good on you.
but personally I'm sick of the whole racism deal in this coumtry, its gotten to the point where it has become boring and people will stop caring all together.
yep i know, personally NZ has many ...
yep i know, personally NZ has many racialist institutions, our founding document the treaty of waitangi supposed to bring us together but has divided us, and maori seats in parliament is just a tool of legitimised racism, why cant we live together as one, equal rights for all
//its relevent and will interest many ...
//its relevent and will interest many people, so good on you.//
yup indeed and 4 once i wont be boring people about my political views
hmm personally I think the treaty ...
hmm personally I think the treaty should be scraped and a proper constitution written in, but i'm sure the back lash for wiping the slate clean maybe somewhat nasty.
I still think a New Zealand heritage clause would have to be involved, so it would recognise the treaty as a founding document, but it would hold no power, only be a physical symbol of the time that our country became one nation. So a heritage clause would act to protect certain things that are determined to important at the time of signing, special sites and cultural acts (i'm no expert so I can't specify what). Protection to class A waihi tapu sites would remain, much like certain buildings are protected under the hestoric buildings/places act. Basically we would be (hopefully) moving forward while still protecting the things that make new zealand, new zealand.
Obviously my idea is not flawless and would need a lot of work, but I like to think it is a step in a better direction than digging up the last 120 odd years and trying to fix the unfixable... waste of money, time and resources.
maybe i'm not totally sick of the issue after all :-p...
//a proper constitution Proper ...
//a proper constitution
Proper constitutions are overrated. Constitutions tend to reflect not only the views and opinions of the writer (and thus to some degree it would be a little bit political), but also of the time and era in which it was written. Hence, constitutions often contain things which at a later time period seem very stupid, but are hard to change. Our lack of constitution makes NZ's lawmaking more flexible.
Our lack of a constitution also has nothing to do with Treaty claims. We have these claims because it is government policy. The government could shut down treaty claims tomorrow if it so chose (rather like it decided that Taranaki Maori don't have a right to oil reserves).
//I like to think it is a step in a ...
//I like to think it is a step in a better direction than digging up the last 120 odd years and trying to fix the unfixable... waste of money, time and resources.
Whether the method they have chosen is the best one is something I'm not so sure on, but I don't think the problems are unfixable, at least in terms of better outcomes for New Zealand. I don't want to sound patronising (although perhaps that's unavoidable) but employment statistics, prison population etc., all sorts of things suggest that something is out of whack. And at least some of the cause has to lie with historical injustice. If we actually want to reduce crime and make NZ a better place to live in all sorts of ways, people need to start on an equal footing, regardless of ethnicity, gender or whatever. And that doesn't always mean equal treatment. As an analogy, if you're learning something at school, and you're having more trouble with it than the person sitting next to you, you'd want the teacher to give you the bit of extra help you need so that you get it. However, as I said before, I'm not sure that the current attempts at redressing the problem are always the best directed.
Ah well, we used to have a ...
Ah well, we used to have a Constitution, passed in 1852 through the British Govt. system. Then in 1986 it was repealed (I think). Witness the only NZ history fact I know.
limegreen, I agree in thoery with your, er, theory on maximising the position of the weak member to draw them properly into line with the rest of society. However, what if you were the talented kid next to them, who received less help because you could manage some of the easier stuff yourself - would you be similarly pleased? In bringing the laggards into line with the 'standard', are we neglecting to raise the bar of NZ society as a whole, by ignoring some students who could possibly make a large contribution to the wellbeing of society in the future?
It's an equity issue in which no-one is right or wrong, but it's still worthwhile to talk about (and bloody thought-provoking too).
"""Our lack of a constitution also has ...
"""Our lack of a constitution also has nothing to do with Treaty claims.""" Acording to the United Nations there is a requirement for every nation to have a constitution, otherwise its law are not considered valid (so we were taught in one particular law paper). The treaty is considered our constitution on this basis, so it is by the treaty that we have valid laws, whether they are related to treaty issues or not.
I'm not sure if flexable law making is always good though...
As for the other issue with equal footing we could argue till we are blue in the face and go no where, but the trick is going to be getting the smarter kid a head while still bringing the struggling kid up to the level we think they should be at.
good thoughts jimi & chronic while ...
good thoughts jimi & chronic
while in principal I think the smarter kid should be given a step up as well, the smart kids are always going to be able to fight for themselves.
//The treaty is considered our constitution
The UN may consider the treaty our constitution, or the inappropriately named Constitution Act 1986 (which repealed the British legislation, but is not a constitution per se), but it remains that we are the only country (apart from Israel{!}) that has no formal written constitution.
//I'm not sure if flexable law making is always good though...
It depends on the commonsense at the other end of it. In the US, changing the constitution is very difficult, and in many cases law changes require stacking the Supreme Court (as over-emphasised by The Pelican Brief). However, I think one of the advantages of our proportional representation system is that it requires a clear majority of New Zealanders to elect a government. And should the government try to pass something truly unappealing, and the G-G rejected it, fresh elections could be called (not that this has ever actually happened of course).
In fact, in a rather unrelated fashion, if nothing else, I think the lack of severe oscillation between governments is a bonus from MMP (heh, watch me open a can of worms)
//The treaty is considered our ...
//The treaty is considered our constitution
im with you there limegreen - i personally regard the treaty of waitangi as a racialist constitution ie. seperate law and greater privilages for one race over the other, if NZ drafted and enacted a "constitution en se." then it will have to be equal laws and rights/privilages for all people regardless of race, religion, gender etc... lets put an end to this "legitimised aparthied" and reverse discrimination, Maori, Pakeha, Pacific Islanders, Asian, Indian, Jewish, Africans are all one......Human!!!!!!
to whom is the racism targeted? to be ...
to whom is the racism targeted? to be honest, i haven't noticed any "racism" so to speak...please. enlighten me with your intellect on this matter...(!)
hmmm...very interesting team...but the ...
hmmm...very interesting team...but the topic title was " racism in the MUSIC industry".....???
yes we went off on a ...
yes we went off on a tangent...
problem with the music industry is people complaining there is marketing based on race, so if you are maori or a pacific island artist or group, your music will be pushed harder than if you are a middle of the row other race. People see the maori specific awards at the nz music awards as racist and unfair, saying what if there was a european award? would that be okay.
the debate is whether it is racist or not, whether htere is more backing for been a certain race? hence my reaction that it was getting boring, refering to all these little things that probably don't really mean a lot.
and back on topic. Bartlett has a ...
and back on topic.
Bartlett has a particular problem with awards like Mana Reo Album, and asks why, given that (his claim) 72% of New Zealanders are celtic in origin (which is bizarre but not the point right now), why isn't there a European album. It might be just me, but I hadn't noticed a whole bunch of Celtic-infused/Celtic language recordings from New Zealand artists. If there were, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to have it as a category.
His bemoaning about Hayley Westenra not being recognised at the Tuis seems a bit laughable. This sums it up pretty well "Industry leaders rejected Bartlett's criticism, saying artists producing "covers" of music written abroad were owed less than those who produced their music here. "
I think if it was to be truely racist ...
I think if it was to be truely racist without question, then it would say only maori could be awarded with the maori cultural sound award (or whatever award). As far as I know, there is nothing stopping me from recording something in maori (other than my lack of talent, knowledge of maori traditional music and I can't speak maori)... but that aside, if I had those elements, I could go for it.
Could all be true, in our 7 years ...
Could all be true, in our 7 years together Monkey Puzzle had one Mexican, one Lebanese, one Jew and several mongrel bred Kiwis of mostly Celtic blood, and we never got any respect from the industry, it could truly be racism or something far more sinister....localism, ever notice how bands from small town NZ hardly get given a fare go, and yet if you're from Auckland all the press and NZ on Air funding seems to go your way, yeah I know the Datsuns are an exception but we can still remember those boys when they were opening for us and we saw how hard they stuggled overseas to get the recognition they now have from the NZ "industry".
I don't think it's localism (in the ...
I don't think it's localism (in the sense that people from smaller towns are being discriminated against), but it's just one of the perks of living in the city. The bigger the city, the more likely you are to find an audience that can support you, the better the selection of good recording facilities and producers / engineers, and the better the contact network. If you're living in Timaru or Norsewood, you can still make it big, but you're always going to have to add copious travel expenses to every undertaking beyond playing to your High School.
I'm not saying it's fair, but it's more a practical issue than discriminatory.
yeah we know all about the travel thing ...
yeah we know all about the travel thing we spent 7 years doing around the southern hemisphere, that was never the issue, part of the problem is punters being unwilling to get off their arses and go and see a band they never heard of, you never know you may just find your new favourite band! I don't think there is that much of an issue of racism in NZ music it's just not getting enough support in general, all the funding goes to band who either suck or are already signed to a label that can give them financial support, wheres the support for unsigned acts and talent, why should funding be given to acts who no longer need it, also it should not be available to bands /Performers that are doing covers of other artists material...i'm off the topic I know but it's a rainy Sunday here in the backwoods and I feel the need of a rant.
By the way if you're looking for your new favourite band come to Masonic Hotel in Devonport and see Sideshifter play on Friday 11th July...we may just fit the bill(blatant Plug I know) and we definitly aren't racists, i'm a scottish Jew who speaks fluent Maori, Tony's a Pom, and Tyson has always been partial to a well "tanned" girl, as have we all!
// hmm personally I think the treaty ...
// hmm personally I think the treaty should be scraped and a proper constitution written in, but i'm sure the back lash for wiping the slate clean maybe somewhat nasty.
i actually don't see how we can progress as a country without some kind of moratorium on treaty claims, or some kind of final reparation. its like saying "ok, lets be friends, but i'm going to bring up everything you ever did to me over and over again and find more as we go along, ok?".
not having a constitution does give us the flexibility that limegreen was talking about, but just becuase we don't have one doesn't mean we don't have a series of documents which fulfil parts of the role that a constitution would, such as the bill of rights.
not much progress is been made the ...
not much progress is been made the current way either.
what about land taken by the labour government in the past for 'progress', in that case I want a big fat check for my grand fathers farm land, we're not going to move forward if we have to repay everyone for what was lost so many years ago.
interesting point. what was the land ...
interesting point. what was the land taken for? was there any compensation given at the time? is it relevant which political party took the land?
and I'm actually interested, rather ...
and I'm actually interested, rather than being argumentative, which is the tone I get from above.
If it was taken unreasonably, then yes, compensation should be considered.
I just saw a line of questioning ...
I just saw a line of questioning :)
the land was taken for development, putting houses on it basically, (if anyone knows fairfield park in hamilton, that region). there was payment made, but very little, especially for the amount of land taken. Its much like some of the land Maori claim back now, where during world war II land was taken for bases, air fields and money given, with promise of return... the money was nothing (and in there case the land not returned). Thats going a little off topic I guess, the thing that rubs me badly with the farm land taken for development is that my family had no say in it.
I think you could argue that it was taken with reason, housing, development for the future.. but say you had 100 dollars invested in something and someone in higher power came in and took that investment and cave you 30 dollars for it, you've been hard done by. Besides money will have since been made off this land through the sale of property and rent. A lot of it is run down state housing now though, its kind of a shame...
umm, I don't know why I mentioned the government that did it, it was just a fact that I thought I'd throw in there.
it was a dairy farm (and other ...
it was a dairy farm (and other farming), taken for the development of the region.
// we're not going to move forward if ...
// we're not going to move forward if we have to repay everyone for what was lost so many years ago.
that's my point.
// we are all one, we should all be ...
// we are all one, we should all be given = opps. regardless of race.
yeah we should, and we don't. some of us have been killed, disenfranchised, raped, infected, punished for using our language, etc. etc. because of our race and have lived our lives under a set of legal concepts imported from a country on the other side of the world.
if i'm sounding a bit OTT it's cos that seems to be your general mode of operation, sam. i don't really claim to know the best way forward, but acknowledging things aren't right seems a pretty good start...
I will be happy when the skin heads in ...
I will be happy when the skin heads in christchurch are wiped out like roaches....
Not even nuclear warheads wipe out ...
Not even nuclear warheads wipe out roaches. What exactly are you trying to say?
// will be happy when the skin heads in ...
// will be happy when the skin heads in christchurch are wiped out like roaches....
hey mate there ain't nothing wrong with skin heads!
Regardless of whether or not the 'R' ...
Regardless of whether or not the 'R' accusation is brought up, isnt always the truth that somebody is always whinging about who didnt get what at award shows. All reports I have gotten of the usually crap NZ music awards this year was that it was the best ever! And it appears to have been well represented from folks of many backgrounds, including honkies. :)
What I laughed at was the quote from a ...
What I laughed at was the quote from a record company exec. who said something like: "I don't care what race the music is. All I care about is selling records... at the moment it's Pacific style that is selling, so that's what I put on the shelf." (emphasis added)
Rape and pillage eh mate. Ah well, at least he's not living in a dream world.
from an outside looking in veiw i cant ...
from an outside looking in veiw i cant really see any....
Oooohhh .... this is a doozy! The sort ...
Oooohhh .... this is a doozy! The sort of topic where you can really get your fingers burnt. Having read the article that L_S referenced I felt that it reflects a lot of the attitudes that is making poor old little NZ an increasingly stink place to live. The "gimme, gimme attitude", the "me too" attitude and of course Aunty Helen's "I know best" attitude.
Having got that off my chest there are some points that I would like to raise.
1. Of course there is racism in the NZ music industry ... racism is everywhere, you cannot avoid it unfortunately. However, having a Mana Reo award, for example, in the NZ music awards is NOT racist. It simply acknowledges that there are people making good music that fits this category ... and it is reflective of a significant contribution that Maori make to the NZ entertainment industry as a whole (FYI 50% of Devil Gate Drive has a Maori heritage)
2. Why is there no Country category in the NZ music awards? Country music has a massive following in NZ. A lot of it is not my cup of tea but we have some world class performers in this category. You will find a lot of little country music clubs dotted around the nation, lots of people having fun and enjoying their music. It is appalling that there is not a category for this type of music. Maybe it is the perception that this is the music of middle-aged, middle-class, white males. It isn't, but I know a lot of people feel that it is.
3. Some of the responses to Gray Bartlett's comments area bit disappointing. I was distressed by Dean Hapeta's claim that Bartlett wasn't a real musician ... GB is probably one of the finest guitarists in the world ... one of the few NZ musicians who could get regular work in the States as a musician. But what distressed me more was the all too familiar tactic of attacking the person rather than arguing the point. This is a common feature of "arguments" these days. All too often the rebuttal of an argument consists of a personal attack rather than any logical refuting of the premise. And it happens far too often in these forums.
4. The article also pointed up some of the snobbery that exists in the NZ music business today. Apparently Hayley Westenra can sell 100,000 records and still not get considered for any sort of award because she covers other peoples material ... why? 100,000 records is an achievement beyond pretty well any of the "original" musicians in this country. So what if she performs covers, lots of other artists do as well. And if all the record companies are interested in is sales, then surely HW is a jewel in their crown.
5. Time to do some work
The Bartlett comments sound like sour ...
The Bartlett comments sound like sour grapes to me. You would think the cut he made from being Hayley's agent when she sold over 100,000 albums would make him happy enough, but he wants an award as well?!?
And as far as racism in the music industry goes: while racism may be everywhere is some shape or form, I think you would find the NZ music industry one of the least affected by it. Its more sour grapes from any band out there thinking they are getting a raw deal from the industry because of race. The radio stations and record companies play and support music that sells - its as simple as that. And the current support for Maori and Polynesian artists is great news for NZ music in general. Its better that the kids are buying Nesian Mystic than Westlife and the money is staying in NZ (well, some of it is).
All that from a 6th generation (white) New Zealander who plays indie guitar pop in an unsigned band who's album was released without a record company....
I agree. I don't think that there is ...
I agree. I don't think that there is what you might call institutionalised racism in the NZ music industry. In fact I suspect that this might be true for what people would generally consider the "Arts" The kind of people who participate actively in these realms tend to be the type of people who abhor racism. (I know I am generalising, but I think it is valid in this case)
And while I agree that there is more than a touch of sour grapes in GB's little rant, he does have a point. Selling 100,000 copies of a record is a monumental achievement for an NZ artist. I think that such an achievement deserves some sort of public recognition and promotion. But the lack of this recognition is NOT racism of any sort.
I might be completely wrong on this, ...
I might be completely wrong on this, but I presume Kiri Te Kanawa probably hasn't been acknowledged at the awards either....
Maybe Hayley will get a government gong like Kiri if she sticks at it for a while.
I know this comment isnt ...
I know this comment isnt helping...
but I liked the way you almost plugged your band in that, should have tried to slip a name in somehow.
maybe they should have an award for the biggest saling record? international section, nz section? would that fix the problem?
There are awards for biggest sellers, ...
There are awards for biggest sellers, and Bic Runga won it for biggest selling album, and Katchafire won it for biggest selling single, while (I think) The Datsuns took out the award for international achievement. Bic Runga has had the biggest selling 2 NZ albums as well I think.
oh okay. then whats his problem? the ...
oh okay.
then whats his problem? the biggest selling artists were awarded... add a country music award and shut the hell up :-P
but is it right for the industry to ...
but is it right for the industry to encourage american copycats?
If Gary wants more spotlight on her, ...
If Gary wants more spotlight on her, get her to sing better songs. Someone should give him a slap on the back, and make him feel a little bit better. // "If something sells, you have to trumpet it.
Give her a trumpet.
//Bartlett's words prompted a counter-attack from hip hop pioneer Dean Hapeta of Upper Hutt Posse
Whatever you do, don't listen to Dean. He'll beat yo ass with a steel pipe.
There wouldn't be too much of that racism stuff in the Music Industry, just two mofos talking shit.
hmm.... i never expected my posts to ...
hmm.... i never expected my posts to sell out, esp if it is of a non-political nature.
how isn't (an allegation of) ...
how isn't (an allegation of) institutionalised racism a political thing?
What is the point in awarding something ...
What is the point in awarding something just coz it sells lots. Surely an award is based on merit and appreciation from a panel of critical and informed individuals. They should look at the music based entirely on a personal response basis otherwise the award is rendered completely flacid. Ole GB should realise that selling 100 000 records is a fckn reward in it self, and stop complaining.
....but hey there is nothing wrong with contry music.....
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Well personally i'm sick of the whole ...
Well personally i'm sick of the whole racism thing
Pakehas are just jealous that us nesians are better then them at the whole music thing rapping,singing, producing anything to do with music......And inthe near future it's all gonna be either Maoris,Samoans, cookislander, Tongans and any other nesian country representing there roots and i say good for them
MUCH LUV GUYS
americans?...
americans?
omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg ...
omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg
Pahkeha's are jelous? omg omg omg omg of Nesian's and the like? omg omg omg omg omg Coz of musical abilities? Bah hahah ahah ahah hah aha ha ha ha ha.
guitars invented by gorillas?
Races can get along as long as the foolosh dont rule.
Pahkeha's usually rule.
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Much Luv? Blow me Asshat....
Much Luv?
Blow me Asshat.
devil rider's right - the sales figure ...
devil rider's right - the sales figure should not be the meaure of awards. how absurd are awards if that's the case.
and nesian prince bro, you clearly aint heard the groundswell of chinese hip hop emerging. That's the future... beware the dragon.
I don't mind there being an award ...
I don't mind there being an award based on sales figures, if only to satisfy all the industry people that sell well/promote the well-sellers who would bitch and moan otherwise.
As long as it's not a major award , it's a valid thing to recognise.