Sorry, that second sentence wasn't too clear...

So you could technically be a pakeha singing in Te Reo and be eligible for the Mana Reo award.

And the Mana Maori category is for Maori, but not specifically restricted to those singing in Maori.

why do we have to call ourselves pakeha?? I don't like to be called that word

// why do we have to call ourselves pakeha?? I don't like to be called that word

don't you? why not? I've decided, after being totally ambivalent about it for years, that I quite like the fact that we have a word for the local white population that isn't 'Europeans'.

I am a lefty liberal though.

//I don't understand why we have to call ourselves a maori word, we don't call them a english word.
Maori is a specific race; same as English, Spanish, Chinese etc. That's why you call Maori Maori. Pakeha is all white-skinned people. Thus, it's not so much a question of fairness.

//Caucasian is a better word, that I think we should use.
pakeha is easier to spell.

//What does pakeha really mean?? white man not part of this land or something??
Walking pork.

I got told a long time ago in History of NZ, that Pakeha meant stranger, which might be wrong. but I don't personally like being called a "stranger"myself.

English isn't really a race, thats like saying NZers/kiwi's are a race, which isn't true.
What do they call white skined people in Australia & America etc??

English = from England. They have a longer history in England than the Maori do in New Zealand.

Anyway. I've been doing a bit of reading and "Maori" is a term that maori traditionally used only to distinguish themselves from "Pakeha" - they usually identify themselves by their iwi or hapu. "Maori" actually directly translates to "usual" or "normal". The use of the two blanket terms only when pakeha started arriving. Although there's plenty of contention about its literal translation, it's most likely that the origin of "pakeha" is something akin to "the foreigners" or "new people".

Interesting reading in this article linking white men and supernatural visitors, due to their similarity to the patupaiarehe.

[ external link ]

I was told it meant 'white pig'.

Yeah, what TRILLION said.

// I'm not a foreigner or a new person, I was born here!!

Well, if we're ruling out words because of their etymology, then 'Caucasian' is out as well (unless you were born somewhere near the Caucus Mountains). 'Europeans' obviously no good. Which leaves 'White'. Ugh, it's so bland.

Obviously the definition has evolved. Same as plenty of (maori and english) words. My point was that the original definition was unlikely to be derogatory.

Did you know that the newly-built St Paul's Cathedral, was described as "awful, amusing and artificial"? And that was a compliment.

we were told a couple of weeks ago by some guy they brought in to teach us about the treaty of waitangi that pakeha is derived from the tall white sails on the ships that came over. like..they couldn't see the boats for the hills, but they did see the sails travelling along for a few days over the hills..and..so on. but who reall knows anyway.

[ http://atomkinder.net/~thefurs ]

My original point was really only to emphasise that Pakeha has no other meaning than to describe Europeans, and that there is no secret meaning, which is making a fool of people who are called Pakeha. I don't want to tell anybody to call themselves Pakeha. Our identity is important to all of us, and ultimately, you have to feel comfortable with what you call yourself.

The thing about the origin of the name Tama is a bit of a digression. Interestingly, I looked up Tama in a Japanese dictionary, and it's not a word, except as a made-up word to identify a brand of drums. In the same way, while Pakeha now makes it into dictionaries, it's only a word inasmuchas it is a made-up word to identify a group of people.

I for one really like being able to describe myself as a Pakeha. And I always make a point of writing it down on forms which dont include it. Its especially good as the only country that I have any connection to is New Zealand, I dont know what my ancestry is, obviously its from Europe at some stage, but thats all I know, so Pakeha allows me to feel like I belong in a country, which is pretty nice isn't it?

i'm a german kiwi. or something.

sieg heil mein ketchup!

I remember Samoan kids at school saying' Stupid Palagi' at white kids, at the time I didn't know what it was, so I thought it was a bad thing.

yeah I know, so I was right, it didn't take me long to find out what it meant.

no it happened before that was on tv, this was 10 years ago.
//Blame your TV
hey, don't say anything bad about my tv!!!

I always thought it was white pig.
But white people/men deserve to be called that after everything they've fucked up!

But words do change their meanings over time.

yes I agree white people (today:those with power) in the past and present take too much without caring about the consequences: thus we (or those in power) have a responsibility.
so...
if i call myself 'pakeha' and there are various meanings or the meaning has changed, how can i be sure I'm not getting into a 'haha jokes on you' senario.
like black rappers unfortunately calling themselves 'nigga'

[ http://www.darktower.co.nz/trillion ]

// if i call myself 'pakeha'...

again, that's my point. when a group of people take ownership of a word (hate to harp on, but 'gay' is the classic example, 'nigga' is another one, but that's loaded with a bit more historical venom than either 'gay' or 'pakeha'), they help remove any derogatory sense that that word may have about it. Especially if the derogatory sense is debatable in the first place. You can't insult someone using a word they use to describe themselves.

// it isn't so much derogatory to me than I just can't relate to the word 'pakeha'.
// It just doesn't sit well for some reason.

ah, well, each to their own really. I'm not advocating that white new zealanders should exclusively be known as pakeha, I just don't think people should get upset when the term is used.

I, for one, have the same lack of connection with the word 'European', being several generations removed from that particular part of the world.

//it isn't so much derogatory to me than I just can't relate to the word 'pakeha'.

mmm, yeah, when you put it like that it makes a lot of sense. I guess most people wouldn't say "I'm pakeha" when they sit far better with "I'm a kiwi, but my origins are Spanish / English / Greek / Thai / whatever". I wonder how many maori feel the same way? After all, I'd rather say "I'm part British part Ngati Rangiwewehi"

//Presumably if someone is being derided as being gay it is because being gay is seen as something that one ought not to be, and thus the word actually is used in a derogatory way.

But my original point was that the word "gay" wasn't originally used in a derogatory sense about homosexuals (particularly male homosexuals) but rather that the word was "adopted" by them to describe themselves.

My point was made in response to a suggestion that the gay community took ownership of the word and so removed any derogatory sense it may have had in ralation to male homosexuals. In fact the opposite is true. "Gay" did not have any derogatory sense (at least as far as I know) originally.

//And the only person stopping you from using the word gay in its original context and meaning is yourself, so what if you get sideways glances?

Yes and no ... it isn't actually a word I would use in the orignal sense much at all ... it is rather old fashioned. My point was that people have either forgottoen, chosen to ignore or never knew the original meaning of the word. This is kinda sad ...