BEST MALE VOCAL / Jon Toogood (Pacifier) - "Pacifier"
Uhh, what year did that track come out? March 2000? Unless they mean the new album, but the other two nominees -- Che Fu - "Misty Frequencies" & Te Awanui Pine Reeder (Nesian Mystik) - "For the People" -- would make me think not. A mistake, surely.
Cheer Joe. It seems my day for being wrong. I was just quickly comparing track listings, and Walls and My Mind Sedate are both 11 (although you probably know that).
//Begging the question is something different. I don't care if it's accepted as common use now! It's WRONG, I tells ya!
Ok. So I'm wrong again, but you'll have to spell it out a bit more. I don't have your geek quotient.
Begging the question refers to a circular argument - for (ridiculous) example if someone says "why is the sky blue" and you say "it reflects off the ocean" and they say "well then why is the ocean blue" and you say "because it reflects off the sky" then you're begging the question.
mmmmm - I dunno Heather that's pretty extreme linguistic nitpicking!!
Doesn't "begs the question" by its language, mean the situation/action etc demands a question to be asked so that it can be answered and consequently some truth can be shed on the subject.
That's why when one encounters something strange or controversial they say, "such and such really begs the question...
I don't understand your definition, yet I don't disagree....mainly because I saw the amount of posts and their frequency that went into the "confessions of a geek" thread and I know that if you choose you're capable of organising a laser beam to fly out of my computer and take out both my eyes to teach me a lesson for questioning the heirachy
Actually, someone is using my log in, and...er.....I posted nothing.
//Doesn't "begs the question" by its language, mean the situation/action etc demands a question to be asked so that it can be answered and consequently some truth can be shed on the subject.
..which is exactly why people started using it in this context. But this isn't how it's supposed to be used, I tells ya! Grrrrrrr!!!
//I know that if you choose you're capable of organising a laser beam to fly out of my computer and take out both my eyes to teach me a lesson for questioning the heirachy
hey, nice... I never thought of that....
..err, but I'd never try it on you, of course...
..you going to TLBT tomorrow night?
Actually, I realised a little while ago that the geeks and grammar-freaks rule this forum with an iron fist. Some poor little new kid stumbles in and says something stupid, and you watch the regulars swoop down in their articulate frenzy to grab the best meat, and then occasionally rip a couple of chunks out of each other...
Damn! Just rejoined this thread, and I did go to the Paradise Bar gig on Friday.
<
Yeah I've been getting pangs of guilt about hassling Lena O's hassling - but I don't feel it's wrong, I guess it's just what separates us from the other animals or something (guilt). Funny, cos' a while ago I had just joined the forum/site and I tried to make a pretty bold statement about inspiration and found myself bloody and broken, engaged in multiple skirmishes and fighting for my very life! Perhaps it's like initiation or something!> Then it's all love and kisses like some big happy dysfunctional families!
//whether the conclusion and premise both are underpinned by an assumption that may be wrong,
hmm, nice. I had to think about this one, and I realised my original example wasn't a very good one. However, begging the question doesn't simply mean making an assumption, but trying to prove an assumption using that assumption.
"Helen Clark is the best candidate for Prime Minister" "Why's that?" "Because she's better than all the other candidates."
//begging the question doesn't simply mean making an assumption, but trying to prove an assumption using that assumption.
You simply rephrased what I said. There has to be a conclusion (the assumption to be proved is a conclusion) derived from a premise (the assumption used to prove the other assumption/conclusion), as for it to be begging the question, it has to be a valid argument. For a nit-picky grammarian, you are quite happy to not use the proper terms for philosophical concepts.
//lazy talkers should be shot.
This didn't seem like the kind of thread where I had to immaculately construct my argument. We still haven't worked out why Jon got the nomination. This is one of the main problems with debates on philosophical points. One tends to neglect the actual issue.
Yeah, seen some stuff about acceptable usage... however, limegreen & I have simply been arguing the same point, except I haven't been reading his posts properly. Horribly embarrassed.
Heather, I think it may still be beggging the question. It's less about whether it's a circular argument, or whether the conclusion and premise both are underpinned by an assumption that may be wrong, or "begs the question".
It is purely academic now, as Pacifier (song) is not on the US release Pacifier (album).
The argument (in full) was The US release date was this year, so it qualifies for this years Tuis. The question being begged was whether the US release date has any meaningful relation to the Tuis, the answer to which I think would have been no.
//BEST DANCE ALBUM / Rhombus - Bass Player , Salmonella Dub - Outside The Dubplates , Subware - Subware
how long have i been living under a rock? i wouldnt consider rhombus or salmonella dub dance...or is it? someone clarify for me please.....wtf?
//The main changes are in the award categories with four new awards and two that recognise commercial success. The new awards are for best Urban, Dance, Roots, Pacific Island albums and highest selling single and highest selling album.
liking the highest selling single/album awards......
but i really don't like the corporate sponsers getting involved in it:
i mean come on - xbox/zm award for breakthrough artist of the year.....blurck. [saw it on juice before]
// i wouldnt consider rhombus or salmonella dub dance...or is it?
// someone clarify for me please.....wtf?
According to the RIANZ website the Dance category encompasses "House, Techno, Jungle, Hardcore, Garage, Breakbeat, Drum and Bass, Tip Hop [sic], Downbeat and Electronica. No remixes."
Which still leaves the Dub and Rhombus out of the mix, really. It is a bit odd. I suppose they might fall into the 'Downbeat' section. Or Tip Hop. Ahaha.
You'd think they'd have thrown dance in with the urban mob, or at least separated out the reggae/dub category, given the number of acts that are releasing albums specifically in this category.
Hardcore is a punk genre
AND FUCKING GARAGE!!!
Don't get me wrong garage is cool in my house...but why?
I hate genre names!!
I bereave in the 1st in 1st severed rule with genre names.
Garage rock was in the 70's and dance garage came in the early 90's I think. sorry if this is wrong.
thanks for shoving that down our throats pied_piper.
//You'd think they'd have thrown dance in with the urban mob, or at least separated out the reggae/dub category, given the number of acts that are releasing albums specifically in this category
you'd think they of all people would know how to catergorise music properly to start with.......
uh-oh, but ignoring hardcore of the 80s punk variety, but even in the world of dance there's hardcore as in "happy hard" or "hard house" - fast and a big bass drum on every beat, and then there's hardcore as in hyper breakbeat stuff coming out of the UK as a precursor to jungle/drum n bass.
i think we should start panicking right about now..
well, unless you are going to talk of hardcore in the vein of punk/metal hardcore, both the OG 80s stuff as well as it's contemporary stylings, it's best not to attach it to any other musical styling. one, because the word itself now has strong associations with the hardcore sound and scene, and two, there's a very devout and militant following the scene who are quite protective of the scene. to borrow the term for the use of house music, is going to be seen as pretty darn sacreligious
i don't think there's any stress for fans of fugazi etc.
hardcore of the breaks variety (maybe you could say safely say "uk hardcore"?) died. it describes a music of a specific place and time, ie. early 90s london. it's often just referred to as "rave" anyway, cos it was a big part of the rave phenomenon.
and, outside rianz, hardcore of the doof doof variety is normally just called "hard".
bla bla... hope you can take this all light heartedly. i'm a genre nerd, but i know their limitations. :)
I wouldnt get too wrapped up in it people - it's just an advertising event organised by and 'old boys club' it doesnt actually involve creativity or art, it involves record companies and corperate sponsors.
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BEST MALE VOCAL / Jon Toogood ...
BEST MALE VOCAL / Jon Toogood (Pacifier) - "Pacifier"
Uhh, what year did that track come out? March 2000? Unless they mean the new album, but the other two nominees -- Che Fu - "Misty Frequencies" & Te Awanui Pine Reeder (Nesian Mystik) - "For the People" -- would make me think not. A mistake, surely.
I think it might be on the US release ...
I think it might be on the US release disc. That still begs the question of why?
Oops. I was wrong. It's My Mind's ...
Oops. I was wrong. It's My Mind's Sedate standing in for Walls on the US release.
//begs the question erg! I hate it ...
//begs the question
erg! I hate it when people use that phrase instead of "which prompts the obvious question", or similar.
Begging the question is something different. I don't care if it's accepted as common use now! It's WRONG, I tells ya!
It's Trademark that's dropped off the ...
It's Trademark that's dropped off the US release. The track ordering is mixed up and Walls is track 4
Cheer Joe. It seems my day for being ...
Cheer Joe. It seems my day for being wrong. I was just quickly comparing track listings, and Walls and My Mind Sedate are both 11 (although you probably know that).
//Begging the question is something different. I don't care if it's accepted as common use now! It's WRONG, I tells ya!
Ok. So I'm wrong again, but you'll have to spell it out a bit more. I don't have your geek quotient.
//geek quotient heh Begging the ...
//geek quotient
heh
Begging the question refers to a circular argument - for (ridiculous) example if someone says "why is the sky blue" and you say "it reflects off the ocean" and they say "well then why is the ocean blue" and you say "because it reflects off the sky" then you're begging the question.
i thought the pacifier album would be ...
i thought the pacifier album would be too late for the tui's
heather you late night lurker
<<begs the question>> mmmmm - I ...
<
mmmmm - I dunno Heather that's pretty extreme linguistic nitpicking!!
Doesn't "begs the question" by its language, mean the situation/action etc demands a question to be asked so that it can be answered and consequently some truth can be shed on the subject.
That's why when one encounters something strange or controversial they say, "such and such really begs the question...
I don't understand your definition, yet I don't disagree....mainly because I saw the amount of posts and their frequency that went into the "confessions of a geek" thread and I know that if you choose you're capable of organising a laser beam to fly out of my computer and take out both my eyes to teach me a lesson for questioning the heirachy
Actually, someone is using my log in, and...er.....I posted nothing.
//Doesn't "begs the question" by its ...
//Doesn't "begs the question" by its language, mean the situation/action etc demands a question to be asked so that it can be answered and consequently some truth can be shed on the subject.
..which is exactly why people started using it in this context. But this isn't how it's supposed to be used, I tells ya! Grrrrrrr!!!
//I know that if you choose you're capable of organising a laser beam to fly out of my computer and take out both my eyes to teach me a lesson for questioning the heirachy
hey, nice... I never thought of that....
..err, but I'd never try it on you, of course...
..you going to TLBT tomorrow night?
Actually, I realised a little while ago that the geeks and grammar-freaks rule this forum with an iron fist. Some poor little new kid stumbles in and says something stupid, and you watch the regulars swoop down in their articulate frenzy to grab the best meat, and then occasionally rip a couple of chunks out of each other...
[ http://www.roomours.co.uk/ryder3.htm ]
I thought it was usually only boys who ...
I thought it was usually only boys who attacked people they were attracted to.
linguist nazis should be shot...
linguist nazis should be shot
<<you going to TLBT tomorrow ...
<
Damn! Just rejoined this thread, and I did go to the Paradise Bar gig on Friday.
<
Yeah I've been getting pangs of guilt about hassling Lena O's hassling - but I don't feel it's wrong, I guess it's just what separates us from the other animals or something (guilt). Funny, cos' a while ago I had just joined the forum/site and I tried to make a pretty bold statement about inspiration and found myself bloody and broken, engaged in multiple skirmishes and fighting for my very life! Perhaps it's like initiation or something!> Then it's all love and kisses like some big happy dysfunctional families!
<<families>> sorry - family...
<
sorry - family
lazy talkers should be ...
lazy talkers should be shot.
//whether the conclusion and premise both are underpinned by an assumption that may be wrong,
hmm, nice. I had to think about this one, and I realised my original example wasn't a very good one. However, begging the question doesn't simply mean making an assumption, but trying to prove an assumption using that assumption.
"Helen Clark is the best candidate for Prime Minister" "Why's that?" "Because she's better than all the other candidates."
"I think, therefore I am."
OK, I'll stop now.
[ external link ]
//begging the question doesn't simply ...
//begging the question doesn't simply mean making an assumption, but trying to prove an assumption using that assumption.
You simply rephrased what I said. There has to be a conclusion (the assumption to be proved is a conclusion) derived from a premise (the assumption used to prove the other assumption/conclusion), as for it to be begging the question, it has to be a valid argument. For a nit-picky grammarian, you are quite happy to not use the proper terms for philosophical concepts.
//lazy talkers should be shot.
This didn't seem like the kind of thread where I had to immaculately construct my argument. We still haven't worked out why Jon got the nomination. This is one of the main problems with debates on philosophical points. One tends to neglect the actual issue.
//lazy talkers should be shot. I only ...
//lazy talkers should be shot.
I only wrote that as a response to fur boy's comment.
eargh, just read over the whole discussion and yeah, you're right. I haven't been making any sense. Damn, hate that.
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-beg1....
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-beg1.htm
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxbegthe.html
http://skepdic.com/begging.html
While not claiming that these references (above) are authoritative they do make for interesting reading on this question.
Yeah, seen some stuff about acceptable ...
Yeah, seen some stuff about acceptable usage... however, limegreen & I have simply been arguing the same point, except I haven't been reading his posts properly. Horribly embarrassed.
... lazy readers should be shot???? ...
... lazy readers should be shot???? .... heh heh heh
touché. I was waiting for that....
touché.
I was waiting for that.
seeing we're being pedantic, i was ...
seeing we're being pedantic, i was typing, not talking.
dick
Heather, I think it may still be ...
Heather, I think it may still be beggging the question. It's less about whether it's a circular argument, or whether the conclusion and premise both are underpinned by an assumption that may be wrong, or "begs the question".
It is purely academic now, as Pacifier (song) is not on the US release Pacifier (album).
The argument (in full) was The US release date was this year, so it qualifies for this years Tuis. The question being begged was whether the US release date has any meaningful relation to the Tuis, the answer to which I think would have been no.
Sheesh! Someone's a grumpy-pants... ...
Sheesh! Someone's a grumpy-pants... Did I forget to use my qualifiers?
//crawls back under rock no need for ...
//crawls back under rock
no need for that. I was ribbin ya
(I hope you don't have a thing against people who use 'ya')
Cheers, I deserved it. Actually, the ...
Cheers, I deserved it. Actually, the whole conversation was just a warped attempt at flirting.
I read that as "BEST METAL VOCAL" and ...
I read that as "BEST METAL VOCAL" and wondered over and over why Che Fu was in that category
heh, spinner....
heh, spinner.
Are you mock me !!...
Are you mock me !!
Yup. Roll over and take it, bitch!...
Yup. Roll over and take it, bitch!
[ http://www.iloveyoureally.com ]
//BEST DANCE ALBUM / Rhombus - Bass ...
//BEST DANCE ALBUM / Rhombus - Bass Player , Salmonella Dub - Outside The Dubplates , Subware - Subware
how long have i been living under a rock? i wouldnt consider rhombus or salmonella dub dance...or is it? someone clarify for me please.....wtf?
//The main changes are in the award categories with four new awards and two that recognise commercial success. The new awards are for best Urban, Dance, Roots, Pacific Island albums and highest selling single and highest selling album.
liking the highest selling single/album awards......
but i really don't like the corporate sponsers getting involved in it:
i mean come on - xbox/zm award for breakthrough artist of the year.....blurck. [saw it on juice before]
// i wouldnt consider rhombus or ...
// i wouldnt consider rhombus or salmonella dub dance...or is it?
// someone clarify for me please.....wtf?
According to the RIANZ website the Dance category encompasses "House, Techno, Jungle, Hardcore, Garage, Breakbeat, Drum and Bass, Tip Hop [sic], Downbeat and Electronica. No remixes."
Which still leaves the Dub and Rhombus out of the mix, really. It is a bit odd. I suppose they might fall into the 'Downbeat' section. Or Tip Hop. Ahaha.
You'd think they'd have thrown dance in with the urban mob, or at least separated out the reggae/dub category, given the number of acts that are releasing albums specifically in this category.
[ external link ]
Hardcore is a punk genre AND FUCKING ...
Hardcore is a punk genre
AND FUCKING GARAGE!!!
Don't get me wrong garage is cool in my house...but why?
I hate genre names!!
I bereave in the 1st in 1st severed rule with genre names.
Garage rock was in the 70's and dance garage came in the early 90's I think. sorry if this is wrong.
Salmonella Dub - Outside The Dubplates ...
Salmonella Dub - Outside The Dubplates is a dance remix is it not?
Plus that rhombus album is pretty dancey.
thanks for shoving that down our ...
thanks for shoving that down our throats pied_piper.
//You'd think they'd have thrown dance in with the urban mob, or at least separated out the reggae/dub category, given the number of acts that are releasing albums specifically in this category
you'd think they of all people would know how to catergorise music properly to start with.......
Sorry,that wasn't surposed to sound ...
Sorry,that wasn't surposed to sound rude.
//i mean come on - xbox/zm award for breakthrough artist of the year.....blurck. [saw it on juice before]
I fully agree with that Lady!
and when they say hardcore i'm ...
and when they say hardcore i'm assuming they may be referring to happy hardcore
correct me if i'm wrong
uh-oh, but ignoring hardcore of the 80s ...
uh-oh, but ignoring hardcore of the 80s punk variety, but even in the world of dance there's hardcore as in "happy hard" or "hard house" - fast and a big bass drum on every beat, and then there's hardcore as in hyper breakbeat stuff coming out of the UK as a precursor to jungle/drum n bass.
i think we should start panicking right about now..
well, unless you are going to talk of ...
well, unless you are going to talk of hardcore in the vein of punk/metal hardcore, both the OG 80s stuff as well as it's contemporary stylings, it's best not to attach it to any other musical styling. one, because the word itself now has strong associations with the hardcore sound and scene, and two, there's a very devout and militant following the scene who are quite protective of the scene. to borrow the term for the use of house music, is going to be seen as pretty darn sacreligious
i don't think there's any stress for ...
i don't think there's any stress for fans of fugazi etc.
hardcore of the breaks variety (maybe you could say safely say "uk hardcore"?) died. it describes a music of a specific place and time, ie. early 90s london. it's often just referred to as "rave" anyway, cos it was a big part of the rave phenomenon.
and, outside rianz, hardcore of the doof doof variety is normally just called "hard".
bla bla... hope you can take this all light heartedly. i'm a genre nerd, but i know their limitations. :)
I wouldnt get too wrapped up in it ...
I wouldnt get too wrapped up in it people - it's just an advertising event organised by and 'old boys club' it doesnt actually involve creativity or art, it involves record companies and corperate sponsors.
a whole new debate!
[ http://www.darktower.co.nz/trillion ]
word, word!...
word, word!
//a whole new debate! Or old,...
//a whole new debate!
Or old,