Thanks. And I was drunk when I wrote that. I generally don't share political opinions.

George Bush isn't smart enough to be even mildly evil, and certainly not the antichrist. It's the people who have their collective hand up his ass, that are using him as a figurehead and a scapegoat, that are evil. It's those people that I'm scared of.

Hell, scope, and now this guy.

// You people are all from New zealand, can't you bitch about your own leaders?

Hell, if you'd come here on 'vaction' (is that the opposite of suction, or something?), you'd know full well that we bitch aplenty about the leaders here. It's a national past-time that we're so good at we're happy to extend the sport to foreign leaders.

// You know what fantaics are?

A lot of orange flavoured fizzy drink?

// As long as you're the most powerful nation, you can bitch all you want.
// I can bitch about Bush because I'm an American
// ... so shut your pie-holes, and quit spouting shit

God, so typical of the arrogance some Americans show towards the rest of the world. Power through having the biggest stick, ey?

// It takes a real attack for you people to start being on our side...

How many Americans have been killed by Iraq in the last 10 years (before the current conflict) bluetree?

//Bush is a good leader
// As long as you're the most powerful nation, you can bitch all you want.
// ... so shut your pie-holes, and quit spouting shit

Sigh... Imagine being surrounded by millions of _these_ on a daily basis...

//Until you are American you will never understand the patriotism we feel towards our country and our leaders even if they are doing wrong

I hope I'm not included in that collective 'we' there. I reserve the right to feel contempt towards people I think are doing wrong, especially when they never asked my opinion at all, yet claim to be working on my behalf.

Ah, silly me, it's MTV Europe.
So no Bombs Over Baghdad for them, ey? (Great song that it is).
Probably on hi-rotate on the US version of the channel, though. Or not.

ahahahahaa! hahahaha!
"Please, understand that I don't take this lightly and ask that you respect my wishes on this."
hahahaha!

// 40 nations now support the war

40 nations have, for various, thought it prudent to support the USA's stance. There's a big difference between support and agreement in this case though. And I'm pretty sure only the UK and Australia are helping out in any practical way (and the big argument over here is that Australia is doing it as part of a plan to get a free-trade agreement with the USA).

// We were never insular...

Hell bells man. The USA is one of the most insular nations on earth. It even had a deliberate foreign policy of non-intervention until WWII (ended by the Japanese, of course).

// When someone pops a nuke in your ass...

Ahaha. Why would they? Have we been cowboying around the world taking on foreign leaders in disregard to UN resolutions? Watch out for those North Korean nukes bluetree -- I suspect they're probably pointed your way, not ours...

// so yes there have been American deaths before the conflict

no, listen to the question...

"How many Americans have been killed by Iraq in the last 10 years (before the current conflict) bluetree? "

That would be *after* the 1991 conflict (the unsuccessful assassination attempt was in 1993, and no-one was killed), and *before* the current conflict. Come on, how many?

// but what i do suggest is that you stop insulting us

I don't think anyone's got a grievance with you bluetree (despite the fact you're coming in here calling people 'retards ' & 'stupid fucks' -- I think most people here have a problem with Bush and his government.

Good call bluetree. It is an absolute disgrace that New Zealand has not participated in the coalition of the willing. Everyone in this forum who opposes the war, actually opposes the US. War isn't the issue because they wouldn't raise an eyelid on other wars where the US hasn't been involved. Further, these wars were PATENTLY ILLEGAL. This war is equivocal on legality, but it is PATENTLY MORAL.

Its funny how all the supposed "peace nicks" never cared about UN sanctioning, untill now. In fact, the UN has only ever sanctioned 4 wars.

Just realise, not all New Zealanders are against you. Some want to reforge alliances with America. Others are too cowardly to do so.

//before you even joined
I'm not sure exactly what you were referring to here... but I presume it was the UN. Nice blatant disregard for world history. New Zealand's leader at the time was instrumental in the writing of the original charter of the UN charter.

//PATENTLY
last I checked, that still meant "obvious", and it is hard to see how something about which there is a lot of disagreement could be "obvious".

//Some want to reforge alliances with America. Others are too cowardly to do so.
"reforge alliances" implies that more than one alliance has been broken. I can think of one. What are the others? I also fail to see how choosing not to reforge these alliances is cowardly, given that we the US has more military firepower and economic clout than we do. That makes it seem more like brave.

//last I checked, that still meant "obvious", and it is hard to see how something about which there is a lot of disagreement could be "obvious".

Okay. Patently obvious to anyone who has done research, and isn't holding an overpowering bias against the US

//"reforge alliances" implies that more than one alliance has been broken. I can think of one. What are the others? I also fail to see how choosing not to reforge these alliances is cowardly,

The alliance is more than what is contracted in a piece of paper. I'm confident that, despite your radical views, you would accept this point. By convention, we would support our allies, the Americans and the Australians. It is ludicrous and reckless ideas (mostly aimed just to get political support), such as preventing US ships from entering new zealand, and refusing to go to war, that undermine these alliances. Of course, it is far too soon for the paper to be scrapped, so your argument is simply ridiculous.

//Rufiox, you make some pretty sweeping calls sometimes.

There is a little bit of truth here. I said that 'everyone' is anti-american, when in fact it is probably only around 80-90 percent.

Rufiox, you might want to consider sometime that you don't have a neutral viewpoint either. You're hardly less biased than I am. In fact, on the whole, you seem much more poorly researched and prone to making wild unsupported statements.

//By convention, we would support our allies, the Americans and the Australians.
You could similarly argue that by convention New Zealand would support the United Nations, given that we were so instrumental in it being set up.

// The first two days of the war I saw every possible 'surrendered'
// iraqi soldier(meaning POW's) they could find on televsion,
// then they start claiming geneva convention when it goes the other way.

ahaha. that was rich, wasn't it? there's quite a good 'discussion' between a couple of cnn and al-jazeera reporters here, in which the double-standards of the american channel (this time with regards to the showing of casualties) are laid out for all to see...

[ external link ]

//Yet a lot of Americans still consider their media to be unbiased!?

A lot of Americans don't realize that their media companies are just that: companies. The various media are owned by corporations who decide what the news is, who decide what to report and how to report it.

Americans are also too complacent to seek their own news, which causes much of the problem.

//is the stupid southern redneck thing just a bit of stereotypical myth? or not...?

There are people of intelligence, wit and culture scattered throughout this great land.

That being said, have yourself a drive through Arkansas sometime and you're bound to meet plenty of people whose ancestors should have stopped taking their sisters for wives a long time ago.

I wouldn't call 25% to 30% of american protesters alot.

//canada, a french provence
another american with wicked geographical skills. Canada is actually part of the British Commonwealth, although some people there do speak French.
Can I ask you a question rollingwood? How are we supposed to take any comments you make on international affairs seriously while you display such basic ignorance? Do you even know where Iraq is? Maybe it's French as well, like New Zealand, and that's the problem?

//the food
Agreed noizy. And the coffee.

//when the UN was formed it was to stop genacide and atrocities but the only people willing to do anything about it is the US
Yes. We have noticed about how the US is very good at propping at dictators, and giving them the equipment to do the genocide and atrocities. The US has a great history of doing anything about it [the UN]. From failing to pay its subscriptions, to bullying and neglecting international treaties.

Are you aware that I'm American? I'm not getting defensive, I was just wondering.

My view, even though it's a view from the inside looking out, isn't shared by the majority of Americans. I generally don't share my opinions in political discussions, simply because if I were to say something like this:

//Americans are also too complacent to seek their own news, which causes much of the problem.

in a room full of other Americans, I'd probably end up being branded anti-american and strung up by my toes.

Most people who are in the minority in the US are taught to keep their mouths shut. The perfect example being: Michael Moore's Oscar speech. At first the crowd cheered, people agreed... but as soon as the first person booed him, the ones who were cheering shut their mouths. Nobody wants to be caught showing any dissent, any difference of opinion.

There have been numerous war topics here, and a few "Bush Jr. is stupid" topics, and I've held my tongue. Only partly because I didn't want to be singled out as the American and attacked for what other people in my country believe (which, honestly, only one person here has done... it isn't that big of a concern for me); but mostly because I live in a culture that represses dissenters. I really believe it's something that we're taught as Americans. Don't make waves, don't make a scene... or in the words of another American here:

//Until you are American you will never understand the patriotism we feel towards our country and our leaders even if they are doing wrong

That's the majority of America, right there; for the most part, the people who don't agree with what's going on never say anything about it because that would be unpatriotic or, god forbid, anti-american. I've never said I don't enjoy living in this country. I'm not against the US. I think America has so much potential, but I don't agree with the direction in which we're heading.

Fuck. I don't even know where I'm going with this. I've lost my point.

Essentially, I think this is what I'm trying to say: I'm not trying to attack anyone here, or tell them they can't express an opinion. If anything, I'd like to be able to tell Americans to express more opinions. Use that freedom of speech. That's what it's there for.

Well there's a diatribe from one confused and frustrated American. Thanks for tuning in.

"Of course the people don't want war. But, after all,
it's the leaders of the country who determine the
policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the
people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always
be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is
easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Hermann Goering
Nazi Reichsmarchall
Head of the Luftwaffe
Nuremberg, 1946