This may not be the appropriate setting to air this question, but oh well. People seem to be saying at the moment that NZ music is good. Often, that it is equally is good as other international music.
NO WAY HOSAY. On the behalf of truly talented musicians, I find this kind of comment insulting. Sure, there are a handfull of average (internationally speaking) bands, who have somewhat of a cult following internationally, but NZ music industry hasn't produced anyone of serious note.
Who are our rivals of John Lennon, Paul McKartney or Jimmi Hendrix? The Finns?
I think people ought to give credit where credit is due. The unfortunate fact is that people are giving it when it probably isn't.
Opinions please.
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credit is due, NZ bands are at the same ...
credit is due, NZ bands are at the same level international bands are, always have been, always will be.
I think NZ Music is the most ...
I think NZ Music is the most down-to-earth music i've ever heard. I use to find it just second tier but it really has grown on me so much since last year when i first joined NZM.
Oh God. Kill this topic now. Now ...
Oh God. Kill this topic now. Now goddamnit. It's been done.
Maybe we should also kill another ...
Maybe we should also kill another cloned "Unhealthy" topic to eh?
Yeah, theres way too many of these ...
Yeah, theres way too many of these cropping up and it's getting really boring and pathetic. Good debates, sure are obviously welcomed, but the same topic done over and over with no real argument deserves to be killed.
Opinion is not fact. Majority opinion ...
Opinion is not fact. Majority opinion is not truth.
On behalf on any people anywhere: I ...
On behalf on any people anywhere: I find the whole "on behalf of talented musicians" call both condescending and wanky. Who the fuck are you Rufiox to be offended by anything on these forums? Why the hell should I care?
These Bands/albums/songs compete Shi ...
These Bands/albums/songs compete
Shi fucking Had
Weta: Geographica
Anything that Don McGlashan touches
The Clean: Anything Could Happen, Point That Thing...
The 3Ds: Hellzapoppin, The Venus Trail - this is the band that turned me on the fact that NZ bands could actually play
The Fucking Exponents Greathest Fucking Hits and fuck all you wankers
Range
Supergroove (especially Scorpio Girls and I don't care what you think)
Marystaple, Two Lane, and the other welly bands that have made my Saturday nights
James Lee Fu
Dave Bloody Dobbyn
The Datsuns
Paselode, St Lucy, Mother Guru and all the other bloody bands I would have never heard if I never found NZM
My fucking Picassos
Head Like A Hole
Black Seeds, Dub Connection and any other act that Barnaby Weir is involved with
Jakob for playing good noise rock
Cassette
This is off the top of my head and I'm 8 beers and a lorra lorra KFC into the wind.
Who are you again Rufiox?
ohhh pulease reflux, your comment is so ...
ohhh pulease reflux, your comment is so ridiculously naive. You seem to be measuring 'quality' as justified by 'recognition'. For starters, some wonderful wonderful music maybe unknown and therefore regarded as not as good as that that gets all the accoldaes. In the second place - your 'on behalf of' comment is truly deserving of this week's 'get your hand off it darryl' award . I'm curious, what justifies / equates 'serious note'? coloumn inches, a marketing plan? believing what you're told ? ohhh my spirit, where's the simple beauty of a melody, the joy of a descending bass line against a rising vocal? the celebration of our humaness, no matter how many units are sold! Music may well be an industry, but it is an artistic communication as well - listen to your heartbeat .. there it goes .... wanker.
since i just bought a $75 dvd from ...
since i just bought a $75 dvd from planet jack that was meant to have 2 discs, and i only got 1 (the stupid wanker left forgot to put one in) i'm in a terrible mood, so if i'm offensive to you rufiox, well fuck ya.
New Zealand music is good, full fucking stop (hehe my lines are inspired by joe :P).
I mean we have good bands who perform well live, and kick arse as such, sure we have some badish acts to, but which country doesn't.
First of all, John Lennon and Paul McKartney. Well i dont know how many of you are beatles fans, but for me apart from a few songs which are fun to sing when you are drinking with lots of people, they come from a band which sort of umm.. how do i put it, sucked. Jimi was excellent, but does that mean nzmusic is bad? No!
meh if i sound like jerk bit me! planetjack.com fags
This post pretty much summed everything ...
This post pretty much summed everything up, so I will respond here.
//$75 dvd from planet jack that was meant to have 2 discs, and i only got 1....
They ripped me off once too. Go complain.
// (speaking of the beatles)... how do i put it, sucked. Jimi was excellent, but does that mean nzmusic is bad?
My point was that there is un upper elite tier of musicians, of which I named a few. New Zealand hasn't produced anyone who comes close to that level.
//You seem to be measuring 'quality' as justified by 'recognition'. For starters, some wonderful wonderful music maybe unknown and therefore regarded as not as good as that that gets all the accoldaes.
No. I am judging musical quality on its own merits. I'm not confusing talent with marketting, which is important to a certain point. You are right that New Zealand groups don't enjoy the same access to marketting as do groups from other countries. This limits there ability to get "recognised". But neither is marketting shared equally within those countries in which some do receive it. There are many groups that have made it big, without an initial media campaign, and it is a sad indictment on NZ Music that this has not been emulated here.
When I started the thread, I wasn't intending to argue "NZ music is shit", because it quite clearly isn't. What I was meaning to say, and I assure that I wasn't meaning to sound condescending in doing so, is that to call NZ music "equal" to all international music is a slight against the elite tier of international musicians.
NZ music is good, but it hasn't yet broken into this elite tier. Recognition, viewed skeptically, can give some rough indication of this. That's not to say it won't, and I hope it will soon.
//At least we aint producing utter bullshit, like britney or avril.
Amen. One of the good things about having little access to marketting dollars, is that musicians aren't totally manufactured, and don't just "sell out". I suppose that's NZ Music's edge.
hehe sorry for the use of language ...
hehe sorry for the use of language dude. can't believe how sour i was last night.
yeah i have complained and getting other disc tomorrow, i think they realise if they dont give me it they will lose a valuable customer hehe.
Ask them to compensate your "pain and ...
Ask them to compensate your "pain and suffering" too.
This is just a topic by someone who ...
This is just a topic by someone who wanted to see how many posts he or she could get. We should drop it.
But for the record:
There is more bullshit, average music coming out of England, America, Australia etc. than compared to New Zealand at the moment. There has been a few bands from this small country that have managed to make an impact on the world of music and its great. They are great. But if you look past those bands and hear all the other music in new zealand not yet discovered you would shut the fuck up. This country is very strong in culture and especially in our music. We deserve as much recognition as anyone else on the planet.
Credit is always due to anyone who puts their hearts into something.
[ go_back_to_afganistan ]
//There is more bullshit, average music ...
//There is more bullshit, average music coming out of England, America, Australia etc. than compared to New Zealand at the moment.
I would agree with that. But because those countries (excluding Australia) are a haven for fantastic musicians, there is obviously more of a viable market for fringe talents. Also, the money taints the music, if you buy into that argument.
At least we aint producing utter ...
At least we aint producing utter bullshit, like britney or avril.
Thank god....
Thank god.
klee anyone?...
klee anyone?
Indeed...
Indeed
GRRRR kill her....
GRRRR
kill her.
Jon Davis also needs to be killed...
Jon Davis also needs to be killed
thats nice...
thats nice
no saul, no...
no saul, no
//HOSAY haha....
//HOSAY
haha.
you want honesty then these Kiwi ...
you want honesty then these Kiwi bands/artists are the greatest to have walked the earth.....
Timberjack
Nadir
Dave Dobbyn (DD Smash, th' Dudes)
Fourmulya (im no fan of them but they are a timeless psychedelic band from all places upper hutt)
// Nadir Random. Heard interesting ...
// Nadir
Random. Heard interesting things... :)
Some New Zealand music is good, other ...
Some New Zealand music is good, other New Zealand music isn't good.
Ditto country music, pop music, rock music, punk music, etc, etc.
ayeap,.. that about covers it...
ayeap,.. that about covers it
If you're into German death metal, ...
If you're into German death metal, then you'll think German Death Metal is good.
If you're into marketing driven pop, then you'll think marketing driven pop is good.
if you're into NZ music, you'll think NZ music is good.
If you're not into NZ music, you won't think it's good.
If NZ music wasn't any good, International record co's would laugh at us, instead they're headhunting us. No not all NZ music is good, but neither is all USA, UK, Asian, etc music. It all depends on what YOU'RE listening to. And if you think any artist from anywhere in the world can match McCartney, Lennon or Hendrix, then you're going to be disappointed. NZ does well considering how little we are.
//if you're into NZ music, you'll ...
//if you're into NZ music, you'll think NZ music is good.
//If you're not into NZ music, you won't think it's good.
me thinks that 'nz music' is not a genre missstress... i prefer to treat it all as music.. and pick out my favourite rasberry drops and sherberts , run home and hide under my bed and feast
you sure know how to make friends in a ...
you sure know how to make friends in a new zealand music site! :P
lol. People interpreted me as ...
lol.
People interpreted me as mounting a criticism of New Zealand music. I think New Zealand music is excellent, but to hold it as the equal of any music out there is unfounded.
I'm sober now, but you're still ...
I'm sober now, but you're still talking bollocks. To say that there is a quantifiiable standard for quality is unfounded. What are the units? What is the method of measurement? Who set the standard and once again: who are you to speak for the elite tier?
Although it is changing a bit now, NZ ...
Although it is changing a bit now, NZ musicians have traditionally had to work very hard to make any impact in an under-resourced and unforgiving kiwi music industry. That means that ultimately you get a pretty good representation across all genres, of musicians who have both talent and perseverance. Therefore, if you really want to quantify, I think it would be reasonable to suggest that if you drew a line under the top 80% of active NZ musicians, that point would equate to the top 60% internationally.
Regardless of whether or not this is true, I think it's wholly inaccurate and unfair to say that just because we (arguably) don't have any 'top-tier' artists, that we can't compete internationally. You can't pick out Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison and say that kiwi music doesn't deserve its good reputation just because we have noone better than them.
Again, that isn't at all what I'm ...
Again, that isn't at all what I'm arguing.
I'm not arguing that New Zealand music isn't up to standard based on the quantity-quality ratio of New Zealand music as compared to other countries. I was attacking the claim that New Zealand music is equal to that of any other country, which I have heard stated on countless occassions.
This claim would necessarily involve a tier of New Zealand music that could rival that of any other country. My claim is that we don't yet have this tier, and that any arguments on the pretense that we do, could therefore be interpreted as a derogatory comment on those countries that do.
//To say that there is a quantifiiable standard for quality is unfounded. What are the units? What is the
//method of measurement?
This is the obvious objection... There are lots of arguments available to me here. I could argue for an elite tier of musicians to be judged on objective criteria, and I think that I could maintain it. Another position would be to take a subjective account of the quality of music, which would result in an identical conclusion so I see no issues either way.
Aha! I get your point now, and you're ...
Aha! I get your point now, and you're right, but I think you've gotten unnecessarily carried away with semantics. I don't think anyone claiming that NZ music is 'equal' to the international scene is actually saying that we have a top tier in comparison to the top tier of UK or US musicians, but surely we're allowed to say that there are plenty of kiwi bands that would perform well in either of those markets, and NZ can be proud of that.
I think most people that state (sometimes perhaps overstate) the talent of certain bands are probably just excited about these bands and, frustrated that they don't get the kudos afforded to similarly talented bands who have the added advantage of heavy backing in the States or the UK. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Could you be any more of a wanker ...
Could you be any more of a wanker rufiox? You've written nothing of substance yet I'm supposed to believe that if you actually made an argument I would be convinced.
Make your argument. Convince me that no artist on this website would be in your "elite tier".
One more thing - if Kiri Te Kanawa is ...
One more thing - if Kiri Te Kanawa is not an artist of serious note I'm not here.
Excellent call....
Excellent call.
I don't think anyone claiming that NZ ...
I don't think anyone claiming that NZ music is 'equal' to the international scene is actually saying that we have a top tier in comparison to the top tier of UK or US musicians, but surely we're allowed to say that there are plenty of kiwi bands that would perform well in either of those markets, and NZ can be proud of that.
I think most people that state (sometimes perhaps overstate) the talent of certain bands are probably just excited about these bands and, frustrated that they don't get the kudos afforded to similarly talented bands who have the added advantage of heavy backing in the States or the UK. I don't think there's anything wrong with that- Heather
heather dear- you got so up tight- but you're supporting my claim- tho i must disagree on one point- there are new zealand artists who come up to the standard of hendrix, mccartney &c- i rate bob from shaft an equal to randy newman, hoagy carmichael &c in the songwriting stakes- i rate now i am me as good a debut as marquee moon- these mentioned- from hendrix to television- are all 1st equal in my record collection- & ¿how about alan haigs drumming?- him & hal blaine & jaki liebzeit should team up- ¿how about daniel manettos & chris hazlewoods guitaring?- them two should record with willie mitchells band
//tho i must disagree on one point- ...
//tho i must disagree on one point- there are new zealand artists who come up to the standard of hendrix, mccartney &c-
Yeah, I was rethinking that point last night. As an exercise I had a look at Q magazine's recent article about the top 100 albums ever. I think regardless of what top 100 you put forward in whatever magazine, there are a lot of NZ artists that would fit quite comfortably in there, given the marketing and distribution.
So, yes, ultimately rufiox's original point is not just irrelevant, but completely wrong. I'm not sure how I'm supporting your claim though, or even which claim I'm supporting. I still think that on average, a high proportion of NZ artists are of a similar (or possibly higher) calibre than a high proportion of international acts in the same genre. (See my comment posted at 13:49)
//I think regardless of what top 100 ...
//I think regardless of what top 100 you put forward in whatever magazine, there are a lot of NZ artists that would fit quite comfortably in there, given the marketing and distribution.
Um. Thats where I disagree. Given this fundamental difference, I can't foresee any prospect of agreement, so this discussion is largely redundant.
At least you got my argument, after my second attempt at wording it... My first attempt was rather "high handed", to quote myself from another forum. I didn't mean to piss anybody off, but to press a point.
¿is someone (A) produces one brilliant ...
¿is someone (A) produces one brilliant piece in their entire life are they as valid as someone (B) who produces 1000?- ¿what if the brilliance of A's one piece is globally recognized & the brilliance of B's 1000 is not?- ¿is a writer who influences a better writer than one who doesn't?