// They spent $200,000 of that recording the album,
// which included a $50,000 advance to the producer.
// They pocketed the remaining $100,000.
Just goes to show US figures aren't always comparable with the local scene. I can't imagine anyway, with the exception of the Feelers, forking out half a million bucks just to record an album.
Even taking into account scaling, well, actually, you're right, it's amazing bands here make a living at all. In fact, most probably don't. Outside the core old school and major label signings, most musos probably have jobs to fall back on. Sanitation workers, perhaps.
I always liked Steve Albini's 'The Problem with Music' essay. Again, probably not quite how things happen in NZ, but still, I think a whole lot of the underlying attitude from "The Majors" remains.
It's also good cos it's fair on the kinds of things a band might do if they got signed. Have a big party, buy some wicked gear, etc. People are human...
The Albini essay is good reading but like a lot of worry mongers he doesn’t give an answer or any helpful advice, he just scares the hell out of you.
The whole essay is kinda rich in that the guy is right in the middle of it, sure ‘he’s in the know’ but the one thing that he is knocking is the one thing that has kept him in the comfortable position that he speaks from.
Who said music pays anyway…………………………these figures aren’t a surprise.
Has anyone got any good advice for bands trying to make something (a career dear I say) out of their music, or will we continue reading these essays built to scare musicians and keep the good music hidden in suburbia?
Bottom line: it is highly doubtful that you will make any serious money playing music, but you will get to release a record, tour the world have a little fun, the worse that can happen is that you get into large amounts of debt and have to break the band up, (you aren’t personally liable), you can walk away and start that sanitation business you always dreamed of doing when you were a kid.
Lets see some constructive talk about ‘how to make it big, and cover your ass’ instead of these links to scare mongering essays that pop up on this site every few months, posted to frighten those aspiring bands back into obscurity.
I remember this essay being brought up when the Datsuns were signing their UK deal, probably brought up by jealous people trying to reassure themselves that The Datsuns would be shafted.
I think rather than trying to scare the hell out of musicians, Albini is just highlighting how easy it is for big labels to exploit new bands with a lot of enthusiasm, and little business acumen. Note the use of naive throwaway language as "that's not much, after all, got a way worse deal..."
I also imagine that the really tenacious bands, whether they've been exploited or not, will ultimately make good given an extra few years and more experience of the industry.
Note: I’m not saying that Albini is trying to scare you, just that he inevitably does. All I wanted to know was his answers to the problem that he is so eager to highlight………of which he gives none.
What are bands supposed to do after reading this?
You'd hope that most bands, when put into the 'signing' situation, would take the time to find out just what they were signing away. If the Datsuns and the D4 are anything to go by, kiwi bands are either pretty savvy, or getting good advice, and are retaining a fair bit of control over their music when those big label contracts start coming their way.
And there are people out there who know a lot more about the murky world of contract law, and are willing to help -- Chris Hocquard (Chris the Lawyer from bFM) and his crew at Dominion Law being the obvious example.
Interesting thoughts, fink. I guess the idea of making it big just seems so unappealing to me that I saw Albini's comments as reassuring - yes, that world is crap, you're right to stay well away from it. :) So I guess I never stopped to think of what the "answers" are for someone who does want to cross over/blow up/whatever.
I heard bigger bands make their money from touring anyway. I thought about it last night - Supergrass packs out Wembley arena (capacity 12,200) at a cost of GBP18.50 per ticket plus booking fee. Even if Supergrass ultimately got, say 5% (not that I actually know - that figure sounds reasonable, I think; correct me if I'm wrong), that's GBP11,000 for a single night. Do a month or two of touring, even much smaller venues, and a middling-popular band could see some pretty healthy results.
Playing live is definitely where the money is for bands. I think your 5% cut on turnover is even a little on the conservative side.
One of the arguments I recall about the benefits of music-sharing on the web is that it actually increases a bands ability to get out and tour and make money from the good old fashioned toil of putting on a good show. Bugger letting the record labels control the flow of profits via their distribution of your music, when you can get your music distributed for free on the web, then hit the road with a few lights, a couple of roadies and a sound engineer: make your own money as you go.
I mean, who'd have thought Great White, unknown 80s hair metal band, could be putting on shows with a crazy pyrotechnics display this long after their 'hey-day'?
indeedy - we'll be the first (well, I'LL be the first) to play with Isaac from ReFuel's new subwoofers! as if i need more bass than usual ... hey limegreen, i don't suppose you're in a band and i saw your band play on Saturday night? (arbitrarily joining dots) in any case, if you're there, come say gudday whydon'tcha!
No, I'm not in a band. Sadly, whether I make it along tonight will depend on whether I can endure the ID card queue. I know that's a lame excuse, but I'm really really busy and stressed out this week, and I don't know if I can spare the time.
If I get along, I'll come say hi : )
Just a couple of things to add: The BIG bands make their money from a number of income streams including live shows, merchandising and royalties.
For example, the beatles still make shitloads of money cos their songs are being played all over the world all the time, and they get a a royalty every time a song is played. Another form of royalty is publishing where someome like Richard Clayderman (the piano playing dude) still sells heaps of sheet music to people learning piano.
Other bands make the majority of their money from merchandise. I think it was slayer who's largest stream of income was from T Shirts!?! Then there are other bands who make their money touring and touring and touring and playing 300 shows in a year.
Re NZ bands: yeah sure the situation is a bit grim. But being in a band and writing music and playing some gigs is a pretty cool thing to do whether you make some money or not. I think there are only a few ways to be a full time muso in NZ:
1. go on the dole (not that rewarding OR satisfying)
2. be HUGE like The Datsuns or Pacifier which means taking your music overseas or
3. Be Diverse!!! This is the really interesting one. I think its totally realistic to make money in NZ from music by being diverse. That means making money from being in a band, mixing/recording for other bands, writing jingles for ad companies (Greg Johnson does this and makes $$$), doing session work, teaching music to others etcetcetc.
Re: the Beatles, yeah, I thought they got suckered by their manager Epstein, who took the rights to the compositions, and he then sold them on to Michael Jackson. I know Paul (at least... I guess there's only Ringo left otherwise tho) has rights to some of the key songs. I think 'Yesterday' is one of them... ie. the world's most re-recorded song. So that must be handy.
Scares me to death this whole concept of losing ownership of yr own music. And I'm not necessarily meaning just the cash thing (although obviously someone making a mint off yr hard work is not exactly inspiring) ... but I'm probably being an utter hypocrite cos I love hearing dodgy bootleg mixes or tunes that use wicked samples of other stuff or whatever...
I think that Jacko owns the publishing rights to the Beatles Catalogue. So the royalties for performance would still go to the original writers (or estate thereof).
But I could be wrong ... whatever, the former members of the Beatles and their heirs have done quite well all the same thank you very much!
sure, big record labels have been plundering musicians.
But lets face it. How many of the big bands would have got as famous without a big record deal?
Record labels only do it because they get away with it.
It just simple suply and demand. If muso's didn't sign these dodgy deals, they labels would have to offer decent deals or go broke.
Get a decent lawyer from the outset, no matter how much it costs, if you do have the potential it will surely pay off in the end.
Feel free to correct me if I am misinformed or misguided, but recording labels need musos and musos need recording lables, with granted a very few exceptions who make it on there own.
But there is our advanteage. As musicians we could manage without the record labels. But they rely on us, so surely as musos wake, and stop signing dodgey deals, the labels will have to start compromizing.
But then again I supose there are still to many artist who want puase properly before signing their life away.
True alot of the labels here in New Zealand don't make alot of money off their artists, i guess that's the only problem about it huh? is that once your in the music biz, theres no going back, for example k'lee still works at just jeans is it, and other artists as well who still have their 9-5 jobs just so they are able to pay their rent and stuff. NZMUSIC is becoming ver popular now, so hopefully the artists are able to to gain more dough....i guess that's why they ask us not to burn their CD's huh? i have to agree with TRUMPET-BOY that labels do need labels and that labels need us....or other wise it won't work.....look at stellar* it took them 6 years just to sign a deal, i guess that's what you call thinking it over....that's why alot of bands are now going overseas for more promo, and hopefully a record company will sign them on, and hopefully get alot of money.............BUT correct if i'm wrong, some Musos are just in for the music....
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Ouch. Although... // They spent ...
Ouch. Although...
// They spent $200,000 of that recording the album,
// which included a $50,000 advance to the producer.
// They pocketed the remaining $100,000.
Just goes to show US figures aren't always comparable with the local scene. I can't imagine anyway, with the exception of the Feelers, forking out half a million bucks just to record an album.
Even taking into account scaling, well, actually, you're right, it's amazing bands here make a living at all. In fact, most probably don't. Outside the core old school and major label signings, most musos probably have jobs to fall back on. Sanitation workers, perhaps.
I always liked Steve Albini's 'The ...
I always liked Steve Albini's 'The Problem with Music' essay. Again, probably not quite how things happen in NZ, but still, I think a whole lot of the underlying attitude from "The Majors" remains.
It's also good cos it's fair on the kinds of things a band might do if they got signed. Have a big party, buy some wicked gear, etc. People are human...
[ external link ]
//Some of your friends are probably ...
//Some of your friends are probably already this fucked...
that's terrible.
The Albini essay is good reading but ...
The Albini essay is good reading but like a lot of worry mongers he doesn’t give an answer or any helpful advice, he just scares the hell out of you.
The whole essay is kinda rich in that the guy is right in the middle of it, sure ‘he’s in the know’ but the one thing that he is knocking is the one thing that has kept him in the comfortable position that he speaks from.
Who said music pays anyway…………………………these figures aren’t a surprise.
Has anyone got any good advice for bands trying to make something (a career dear I say) out of their music, or will we continue reading these essays built to scare musicians and keep the good music hidden in suburbia?
Bottom line: it is highly doubtful that you will make any serious money playing music, but you will get to release a record, tour the world have a little fun, the worse that can happen is that you get into large amounts of debt and have to break the band up, (you aren’t personally liable), you can walk away and start that sanitation business you always dreamed of doing when you were a kid.
Lets see some constructive talk about ‘how to make it big, and cover your ass’ instead of these links to scare mongering essays that pop up on this site every few months, posted to frighten those aspiring bands back into obscurity.
I remember this essay being brought up when the Datsuns were signing their UK deal, probably brought up by jealous people trying to reassure themselves that The Datsuns would be shafted.
I think rather than trying to scare the ...
I think rather than trying to scare the hell out of musicians, Albini is just highlighting how easy it is for big labels to exploit new bands with a lot of enthusiasm, and little business acumen. Note the use of naive throwaway language as "that's not much, after all, got a way worse deal..."
I also imagine that the really tenacious bands, whether they've been exploited or not, will ultimately make good given an extra few years and more experience of the industry.
Note: I’m not saying that Albini is ...
Note: I’m not saying that Albini is trying to scare you, just that he inevitably does. All I wanted to know was his answers to the problem that he is so eager to highlight………of which he gives none.
What are bands supposed to do after reading this?
Errrrr - Commercial & Copyright Law ...
Errrrr - Commercial & Copyright Law courses, perhaps? BCA? Yeah, granted it is a discouraging article.
Might look further into this actually...
//What are bands supposed to do after ...
//What are bands supposed to do after reading this?
exactly. its a lock-your-doors culture afterall.
// What are bands supposed to do after ...
// What are bands supposed to do after reading this?
Becareful what they are signing? As Heather said, get a bit more business savvy.
// Lets see some constructive talk about ‘how to make it big, and cover your ass’
Discuss away. This is a discussion forum after all. The article is but a prompt.
You'd hope that most bands, when put ...
You'd hope that most bands, when put into the 'signing' situation, would take the time to find out just what they were signing away. If the Datsuns and the D4 are anything to go by, kiwi bands are either pretty savvy, or getting good advice, and are retaining a fair bit of control over their music when those big label contracts start coming their way.
And there are people out there who know a lot more about the murky world of contract law, and are willing to help -- Chris Hocquard (Chris the Lawyer from bFM) and his crew at Dominion Law being the obvious example.
Interesting thoughts, fink. I guess the ...
Interesting thoughts, fink. I guess the idea of making it big just seems so unappealing to me that I saw Albini's comments as reassuring - yes, that world is crap, you're right to stay well away from it. :) So I guess I never stopped to think of what the "answers" are for someone who does want to cross over/blow up/whatever.
I heard bigger bands make their money ...
I heard bigger bands make their money from touring anyway. I thought about it last night - Supergrass packs out Wembley arena (capacity 12,200) at a cost of GBP18.50 per ticket plus booking fee. Even if Supergrass ultimately got, say 5% (not that I actually know - that figure sounds reasonable, I think; correct me if I'm wrong), that's GBP11,000 for a single night. Do a month or two of touring, even much smaller venues, and a middling-popular band could see some pretty healthy results.
Does this sound plausible?
Playing live is definitely where the ...
Playing live is definitely where the money is for bands. I think your 5% cut on turnover is even a little on the conservative side.
One of the arguments I recall about the benefits of music-sharing on the web is that it actually increases a bands ability to get out and tour and make money from the good old fashioned toil of putting on a good show. Bugger letting the record labels control the flow of profits via their distribution of your music, when you can get your music distributed for free on the web, then hit the road with a few lights, a couple of roadies and a sound engineer: make your own money as you go.
I mean, who'd have thought Great White, unknown 80s hair metal band, could be putting on shows with a crazy pyrotechnics display this long after their 'hey-day'?
Playing live is where its at for ...
Playing live is where its at for geniune bands, and merchandise. Those are the big two. Hence support your local live scene.
hear hear, antic! amen!...
hear hear, antic! amen!
psyched up for tonight iluvtheclean?...
psyched up for tonight iluvtheclean?
indeedy - we'll be the first (well, ...
indeedy - we'll be the first (well, I'LL be the first) to play with Isaac from ReFuel's new subwoofers! as if i need more bass than usual ... hey limegreen, i don't suppose you're in a band and i saw your band play on Saturday night? (arbitrarily joining dots) in any case, if you're there, come say gudday whydon'tcha!
No, I'm not in a band. Sadly, whether ...
No, I'm not in a band. Sadly, whether I make it along tonight will depend on whether I can endure the ID card queue. I know that's a lame excuse, but I'm really really busy and stressed out this week, and I don't know if I can spare the time.
If I get along, I'll come say hi : )
Just a couple of things to add: The ...
Just a couple of things to add: The BIG bands make their money from a number of income streams including live shows, merchandising and royalties.
For example, the beatles still make shitloads of money cos their songs are being played all over the world all the time, and they get a a royalty every time a song is played. Another form of royalty is publishing where someome like Richard Clayderman (the piano playing dude) still sells heaps of sheet music to people learning piano.
Other bands make the majority of their money from merchandise. I think it was slayer who's largest stream of income was from T Shirts!?! Then there are other bands who make their money touring and touring and touring and playing 300 shows in a year.
Re NZ bands: yeah sure the situation is a bit grim. But being in a band and writing music and playing some gigs is a pretty cool thing to do whether you make some money or not. I think there are only a few ways to be a full time muso in NZ:
1. go on the dole (not that rewarding OR satisfying)
2. be HUGE like The Datsuns or Pacifier which means taking your music overseas or
3. Be Diverse!!! This is the really interesting one. I think its totally realistic to make money in NZ from music by being diverse. That means making money from being in a band, mixing/recording for other bands, writing jingles for ad companies (Greg Johnson does this and makes $$$), doing session work, teaching music to others etcetcetc.
There ya go - thats my 10c worth for the day
//Just a couple of things to add: The ...
//Just a couple of things to add: The BIG bands make their money from a number of income streams including live shows, merchandising and royalties.
back in the ol' days you could make money off cds, pretty gay for high profile bands these days
//For example, the beatles still make ...
//For example, the beatles still make shitloads of money cos their songs are being played all over the world all the time,
I thought Michael Jackson owned a lot of The Beatles songs?
Re: the Beatles, yeah, I thought they ...
Re: the Beatles, yeah, I thought they got suckered by their manager Epstein, who took the rights to the compositions, and he then sold them on to Michael Jackson. I know Paul (at least... I guess there's only Ringo left otherwise tho) has rights to some of the key songs. I think 'Yesterday' is one of them... ie. the world's most re-recorded song. So that must be handy.
Scares me to death this whole concept of losing ownership of yr own music. And I'm not necessarily meaning just the cash thing (although obviously someone making a mint off yr hard work is not exactly inspiring) ... but I'm probably being an utter hypocrite cos I love hearing dodgy bootleg mixes or tunes that use wicked samples of other stuff or whatever...
[ http://www.nonwrestler.com ]
I think that Jacko owns the publishing ...
I think that Jacko owns the publishing rights to the Beatles Catalogue. So the royalties for performance would still go to the original writers (or estate thereof).
But I could be wrong ... whatever, the former members of the Beatles and their heirs have done quite well all the same thank you very much!
Fuckaroonie.. That's pretty Harsh. I ...
Fuckaroonie..
That's pretty Harsh.
I have even more respect for our own bands after reading that.
sure, big record labels have been ...
sure, big record labels have been plundering musicians.
But lets face it. How many of the big bands would have got as famous without a big record deal?
Record labels only do it because they get away with it.
It just simple suply and demand. If muso's didn't sign these dodgy deals, they labels would have to offer decent deals or go broke.
Get a decent lawyer from the outset, no matter how much it costs, if you do have the potential it will surely pay off in the end.
Feel free to correct me if I am misinformed or misguided, but recording labels need musos and musos need recording lables, with granted a very few exceptions who make it on there own.
But there is our advanteage. As musicians we could manage without the record labels. But they rely on us, so surely as musos wake, and stop signing dodgey deals, the labels will have to start compromizing.
But then again I supose there are still to many artist who want puase properly before signing their life away.
True alot of the labels here in New ...
True alot of the labels here in New Zealand don't make alot of money off their artists, i guess that's the only problem about it huh? is that once your in the music biz, theres no going back, for example k'lee still works at just jeans is it, and other artists as well who still have their 9-5 jobs just so they are able to pay their rent and stuff. NZMUSIC is becoming ver popular now, so hopefully the artists are able to to gain more dough....i guess that's why they ask us not to burn their CD's huh? i have to agree with TRUMPET-BOY that labels do need labels and that labels need us....or other wise it won't work.....look at stellar* it took them 6 years just to sign a deal, i guess that's what you call thinking it over....that's why alot of bands are now going overseas for more promo, and hopefully a record company will sign them on, and hopefully get alot of money.............BUT correct if i'm wrong, some Musos are just in for the music....
K'Lee doesn't work at JJ's anymore, ...
K'Lee doesn't work at JJ's anymore, she got a stalker after her workplace was published in an interview.
Stalkers. Another upside of being famous-in-New-Zealand