Mike. At last. I'll reply later tonight or tomorrow but can you just tell me if you specifically refering to the General electric inner sleeve photo shoot or other ones like rolling stone etc. Also If you can list any more of your gripes and I can answer them one by one it would be great too. Cheers!

then after that came the stacks of speakers, and whacky antics "fuckin awesome" "awesome dancing" and my personal fave "see if you can keep up with this one....hit it tt(?!)" now i understand you play a lot but the same banter for the last i don't know how many shows. its almost like "ok 4th song jon takes top off. my minds sedate "see if you can keep up with this one" and "ok where back in nz, we gotta play home again last ok." myself and others kinda get the feeling our once beloved band are going thru the motions. you used to be able to rip venues to pieces with a couple of white lights and one chord. why the big show now. is it a case of "where packing out these big venues we gotta put on this kinda show coz thats what you do." don't you think it would be more impressive to people in the industry here & overseas that this band from nz blows all these other bands away, "and check it out they don't have all the frills, and only one amp each, fuckin hell, how do they sound so huge" what d'ya reckon? tom, if you can convince me that the change in your sound, and image has been your own decision, i'd be really greatful, i might even respect you in the morning! there is more tom, but this'll do for the meantime. MIKE

Well in response to the second set of questions - I'm going to divide it into two - Firstly the albums, the musical change and why etc. Secondly the live show - the banter , the presentation of the band etc.
OK - 'The Fish album' - this is probably the biggest sticking point for people who followed the band from either 'churn' or 'Kiljoy' let alone those who were with us from 'Devolve' - looking back it seems obvious why people would be so shocked but back in the day (1996) it seemed like a far more natural thing to do - and whats more I reckon it was a really brave move and this is what so many people who shout sell out fail to understand - I realise that there are people out there who genuinely didn't like the album and thats cool - there are too plenty of people who got turned onto the band from it as well. The thing is that music in the end is purely about taste and opinion we have never done this stuff in order to feather our nests - I promise that the sacrifice and effort involved far outweighs any financial benefit you may recieve in playing the kind of music we do. If we were looking to make money out of playing music we would be doing some radically different shit and we would be utter faliures by our current standards.
Anyway the fish album happened because.
1. We had No outlet for our other material
Before we did the fish album all of us had little side projects going where we could experiment with different kinds of music and fuck around and try on different hats - for me and Jon - we had SML with nigel regan from HLAH and this was something that gave us a huge amount of creative energy for kiljoy. It really opened up the way we aproached things melodically and rhythymicly and we harnessed that alongside the white heat we generated for that album - We were able to effectively channel our more poppy playful side into another band and explore it without feeling like we were missing out while playing in Shihad. Phil also was playing around with alot of electronic shit back in the day and bringing warped little ideas along to rehearsal like debs nite out etc. By the time we got back to NZ in late 1995 we had spent 10 months on tour relentlessly all across the globe - this had really opened our eyes up as people and our ears up as musicians but most importantly we had had no time or space to try out ideas with other people - HLAH were busy as fuck and there had become some genuine antagonism when they started releasing material that we had collaborated on as their own - 'Berlin stench' 'Jellybag' etc. which left everyone loathe to continue trying to work together and whats more we were under genuine pressure to start work for a new album while touring in the US from both management and the US/European record company - I should point out that they were putting us under this pressure in order to capitlise on the momentum we had achieved - not any pressure to deliver an album full of pop songs.
So the band got together and started writing - Several different methods were tried - we had the band writing together, we had little twosome partnerships going down to net songs and we also had jon writing by himself - there were some really different strains of music coming out - some of which was more traditional shihad - 'Ghost from the past etc'. and some of which was pure SML style pop 'Missionary' and there was also a new strain of material like 'Home Again' etc, we all realised that we didn't have the scope we once had to experiment with other people so why not just do all the shit we do within the one band as IT WOULD BE A MORE HONEST REPRESENTATION OF WHO WE REALLY ARE rather than peeling off a certain side of our music and calling it Shihad - At the time this made perfect sense and essentially followed this as our doctrine for making the record.

2. Pigeion holed as a metal band and we were 'battlesick
THe whole touring thing overseas was a real uphill battle - we were signed in both the US and Europe to a record company reknown for heavy metal - they wanted us to be the new wave of 'hard alternative' that they were going to push and I'm sure they saw themselves as having found an antipodean 'Tool' or 'Helmet' unfortunately their ENTIRE infrastructure and press contact base was pure Heavy Metal and this really left us high and dry - the people that they could get us interviews or reviews with thought we were weird and the people that would probably love the band wouldn't even pick up the phone from Noise records - I still remember clearly the amazement on the face of a head melody maker reporter opon finally seeing the band and being soo amazed that we were on this label and how no-one would ever take us seriously until we were presented the right way. The British office for NOISE was run by a guy called Mike whose favourite band was 'SAXON' and he had a bath once a week (I'm NOT Joking) and his press release for shihad started as such (THis is for kiljoy by the way!) "Shihad - they are young , they are metal and they are evil....."
So imagine how this translated on a touring level - I tell you when you spend enough time in the company of total pigs that you have nothing in common with because we don't really like fucking wide eyed 14 year old girls or sharing stories about the latest pussy you scored - all of whom would relentlessly patronise their audience and walk around like over manicured condoms stuffed with walnuts- we were looking for anything that would give us an escape asthetically from this world of fuckwits - If we just played the kind of music that just came out of us naturally then the HEAVY METAL world would disown us lock stock and barrel and we could perhaps surround ourselves with people who really gave a fuck about music and other human beings etc. This created a real gut reaction within the band against anything that sounded too metal - we just didn't want to give anyone an excuse to view the band as a metal band again and subsequently we aspired toward the more colourful tunes that we came up with as a reaction against the hard guy lobotomised spinal tap world we had spent the majority of the last 12 months in.

3. Real lack of focus due to GD / Other shit etc.
We landed back in NZ to finish writing the album absolutely shattered really - Karl had to come home abruptly due to his grandmother dying, Phil had contracted glandular fever in the US - A really bad case of it I might add and we all came home to various levels of relationship problems - we had no money, no jobs and the only thing we could do was look forward to continuing to write the next album and then going back out on the road that we were totally sick of. But at the beggining of 1996 Gerald our manager died leaving us without our mentor and to handle our business afairs, three record companys and the recording of the next album on our own - No matter how hard we tried to keep the ship on an even keel something was going to give and I genuinely believe that with some good 20/20 retrospect we should have halted things for a while until we really got our collective shit together but back then it was fuck that - full steam ahead - we must keep the wind blowing into the sails and don't look down for fear of falling. This manifested in many ways and by the time we did the album the band were basically not very focused on getting the album right - Thats why there was a real lack of bottom end and good performance - people were burying themselves in other things and not really concentrating on delivering the very best album we could make at the time. Also pot may be great for creativity but it's fuckin' crap for getting the best performance out of a band!

4. A desire to really try some thing different and open doors within the band musically.
There was within the band a genuine desire to experiment and refresh what we were about - we had just collectively seen the world and we wanted the album to reflect that - we were listening to a whole variety of new stuff - And you're right about Oasis being one them - We saw the at roskilde in a tent for 10,000 people and it was so fuckin loud and guitar heavy that we instantly fell in love with it. Also lots of other stuff from the Verve to Unsane, Radiohead to Rocket from the crypt all this shit was making a big impact on us and we really wanted to play 'round with it.

5. Arrogance
We also had a rather inflated sense of ourselves too - we'd just won the music awards against all the odds and toured the world - we knew where it was at - you can't tell us that we should look at things from a different angle - We walk on fuckin water and everyone who loved kiljoy will automatically love the fish album because it's by us! Just look at U2 - they can do it!
At times this was the kind of attitude we floated around in - looking back it is easy to see why this could happen and that without a guy like Gerald who would have kicked us in the ass for it - It was also about the brash confidence that WE were in charge of our own destiny now and no - one was going to tell us what to do. Now here comes the revealing stuff - what did the record companies think? we sent demos - well there were three different opinions prior to recording - there was Noise records - the home of heavy metal - instantly fired back a letter - It was very german - i.e. thank you for your demos - please send 6-8 tracks of harder material immediately. thank you. Polygram in Australia didn't listen to them and wildside thought they were great - the best stuff we had done. After we recorded the album the feedback went like this - Noise thought they had the next Oasis on their hands and went about telling all their metal associates about how great we were - they did this fantastic business plan about how to market the album in europe, Flew people to NZ to see the band - flew us to europe to tour and gave up on it when we didn't sell any records within the first week and subsequently dropped us. YAY!!! Polygram Australia hit the roof - what the fuck are you doing???!!!! This is not the hard band we signed - what will your fans think? There's a clause in your contract that says you can't change your style (True!) - this is a disaster!!!!!! What have we done?!?!?! and subsequently came round to it over time but the initial stages of 'Setup' and marketing were all a bit confused and basically the record got fumbled in aussie.
Wildside were great Murray loved the stuff but some people at BMG found it pretty hard to cope with the stylistic change and found it hard to get the marketing right for the record. But nonetheless they did a really good job for such a huge curveball that we threw them.

I find it intersting to note after all this time that people are still upset about that style change - we are humans - humans change - I think it would have been far more of a genuine sell out if we had all said to each other - OK guys lets just make a hard record because thats what everyone expects - If we had done that we wouldn't have been true to ourselves and that would have really been selling out. I know that we could have done that record better - certainly it could have sounded better and we could have performed it better too. But the fish album was really importent for us - and although it has a patchwork quilt aspect to the style and track selection - it still contains some of what i believe are our best songs and there are some moments on there that are genuinely awesome - Home again - La la land - Yr head is a rock etc. We learnt heaps - some of what we learned was what not to do but in the end the album was a snapshot of where the four of us were at in 1996 and you all know what happened next - I really want everyone to know that this group really do put music first becasue if that isn't right it's just not worth the pain - we don't follow the orders of the reord company - what kind of life for no pay would that be???? Every note on record has been - for us, by us and then to share with you - the record company helps us choose singles (Basically a radio ad for the album) and gets the shit out to people . There is no evil plot to sell shitloads of records by changing our style - If that was the case then we've pulled some really fuckin' stupid moves - My MInds sedate as a single????!!!!!! yeah big time mainstream radio with that one! General electric?? Definately More FM Bound!!! You see a song like pacifier was just a beautiful song - we've always had them - Stations and bone orchard on churn - Debs nite out and for what you burn on Kiljoy - that side of us has always been there we've never hidden it - we love writing shit that makes your spine tingle - we're suckers for it it's not about selling out or changing style to sell more records it's about WHO WE ARE. Whatever you may think of what we do - it always comes from our hearts - and I don't care if you don't like it but don't think for a minute that we don't stand behind it 1000% The fish album is not perfect - but it is real and it is heartfelt and it was our third album and I fuckin' love it.

Please feel free to comment mike - I'm going to wait until you come back with a response and your top 10 list before I go into the live show stuff and i hope you'll be open to me asking you some more questions about your viewpoint too, this is supposed to be a two way thing

Mike - LOng time no hear - Good lists BTW top ten's are better because there is more scope for me to tell you about a situation or example I am aware of etc. to paralel it to ourselves etc.
Can you please respond to what I have written so far - Does your take on shit add up still - If not what do you now feel etc.
Give me something to chew on!
Tom had

cheers jimi. to dark & bleak: i'm not on my computer, so i have had to keep these last few brief. i didn't think my answers were that moronic in my last post?! oh well. incidentally i may be able to arrange a vinyl copy of killjoy, but the cd is far better quality- digital mastering or something i guess.

Mike - It's all very well answering and saying that i did a pretty admirable job on my replys - but you have yet to explain why you feel like you do up against what I have explained - all I get is more questions - I'll answer them for sure but what about some refection dude - why did you go out and trumpet all this shit about us - tell it like it's all fact and then become all coy and casual when I have explained what we've done and why we've done it. I did this not just for you obviously but the part I wanted you to explain is how your predjudices and resentment toward the band stand up against the truth. There are plenty of people out there right now tearing shit down using the same kind of assumtions and gossipmongering that you did - It is up to you to show me that either your previous assumtions are groundless or at least mis-informed or they we're there so you could have a go at us for something far less tangeble and raw - like perhaps we were that special band that you loved and cherished but when you started seeing school children and bogans come in and buy the album it changed the way you felt about the band because god knows having the same taste as some of the "Great unwashed" is a fate worse than death. I don't know but you are bordering on a total waste of time for me - I do seek to understand you too and how you get to thinking this stuff but you don't seem to want to go there. Please prove me wrong.
PS the jacket you see phil wearing was one he continued to wear for a long time - it's now so worn that his girl friend wears it instead - It was totally plausible to see Phil wearing that jacket whilst going down to the local fish and chip store - There were two items of clothing in that photo shoot that never made it to everyday status - Jon's shoes and a necklace that Karl wore - Hardly enough to say we never dressed like that in real life.
Vinyl Kiljoy sounds like shit - it looks great but it was done by idiots in germany who thought that Karls bass feedback at the begining of 'For what you burn' was a mistake so they subsequently removed that frequency off the whole album - Meaning NO BOTTOM END! the NZ/AUS CD pressing of kiljoy sounds far better than anything from germany on CD or Vinyl.

Hey if anyone wants to make a comment about this rather interesting debate please feel free to do so, but how 'bout making them in the SHIHAD VS EX-FAN topic in B.O.B. That way this debate can rage on without getting too sidetracked. cool?

[ http://www.nzmusic.com/topic.cfm?i=1384 ]