i didnt think that alternative got used anymore. wasnt it a catch phrase to descripe bands in the post GnR pre Nirvana era? or any band that is not classic rock? yeah alternative is fucked. :)

Yeah, 'alternative' is a minefield. It has unfortunately been linked to the term 'wankers'.

alternative was pretty much a 90s thing, but it still stands.

alternative's a pretty subjective thing, but for me it's whatever surprises me a little. you go along, expecting to see something, and expectations get blown out of the water.

i guess the thing with betchadupa is that they're young and still naturally wearing their influences on their sleeves, till they find their own way. live, they're pretty damn good and really do range into new areas (though i've only seen them twice and lust after the guitarist).

but yeah, in the past "alt" has been used as a convenient marketing/genre classification. i remember summers down by the river early 90s wading thru my friends's tapes in their orange datsun ... dinosaur jr, sonic youth, nirvana, porno for pyros, sebadoh and a million other now forgotten bands. they were alt to me then, but times change.

hope i make sense. i'm still at work writing grammatically incorrect sentences for a living ...

genres are fairly unreliable at the best of times...

but i think of alternative as a 90s thing, and many of the the bands iluvtheclean mentions...
part of the problem with them is that they are fuzzy entities, and easiest to use when applied retrospectively. Back in the day Green Day, Korn and Rage were all labelled alternative, but now i've heard people call Green Day punk rock, and Korn are fathers of one of the genres (nu metal or something). They're just labels, and ultimately only vaguely useful, and probably slightly less usefull and intelligible than the ones librarians use.

As a result, I'd suggest that labelling the datsuns is a bit premature. It'll only be after we see what comes after them (in 10 years time) that it will very obvious. And even then it'll be pretty arbitrary.

alternative (noun) 1. a possibility of choice, esp between two things. 2. either of such choices. (adj) 3 presenting a choice, esp between two possibilities only. 4. (of two things) mutually exclusive. 5. denoting a lifestyle, culture, art form, etc. that is regarded as preferable to that of contemporary society because it is less conventional, materialistic or institutionalized.

Collins Concise Dictionary 21st Century Edition.

I guess in the context of this discussion the final definition is that which would most closely fit most peoples idea of what alternative rock is. But for me I just get confused. There are so many genres (alternatives) and, within them, sub-genres that I just get lost.

I cast my mind back to the dim, dark past and the late 1970's early 1980's. Listenting to Barry Jenkin late at night on Radio Hauraki ... and these fresh sounds, ground-breaking stuff ... PUNK rock. Angry, aggressive music ... an alternative to the big rock of the time.

Further back to the 60's (yep I'm that old) and this bright and breezy music from this band of long haired pommy lay-abouts (my dad's description) with the misspelt name. Music that really captured the imagination of young people around the world. The music of The Beatles (another "the" band) was an alternative to the buttoned down stuff of our parents generation. And around the same time another alternative in the form of The Rolling Stones ... a moodier attititude and even longer hair.

So really for me the term alternative in relation to genres of music is as much related to the time as the music itself. A bit like the term "pop". In it's original meaning it was simply a contraction of popular ... so pop music was the popular music of the day ... the stuff that "the people" listened to on the radio. As opposed to getting dressed up in black tie and attending a performance of the LSO. These days "pop" is often used to denigrate music that is seen as too commericial though in the broader sense it covers a huge range of genre ... Top of the Pops clearly demonstrates this with a wide range of genre represented on it over time. (Even if a lot if it is utter crap, IMHO)

Even the term "rock" is another made-up label. Used to describe music that was harder, edgier than the pop of the day. And in itself lifted from the term rock 'n' 'roll. Another genre with its' roots in black american music. Rock 'n' Roll was a descriptive term and a euphimism for sex. So R'n'R was music about (and for?) sex. No wonder white america wanted to ban it.

But Rock is just another made-up label ... like Metal, Heavy Metal, Alt Rock, Grunge, Indie, Power Pop .. the list goes on. And the labels can confuse ... The D4 have been described to me as Rock 'n' Roll ... and I guess in a sense they are. The music is pretty straight 1,2,3,4 goodtime balls out stuff. But to my ear there is a real punk senisibility to their sound, and as a group they certainly tip their hat to some powerful punk influences.

I know this is a bit of a ramble, but my point, and I do have one, is that in the literal sense a lot of "rock" is alternative, ie preferable ... because it is less conventional, ... different in fact.

Perhaps we should be less quick to label music and pop it into nice little compartments. Rather just let the music move you as it will ... too often we use the label to denigrate something we don't particularly like ... or that which we don't understand.