THAT TADPOLE AND CHE FU ARE IN THE UNFORTUNATE POSITION OF OWING MONEY TO A RECORDING COMPANY IS NONE OF MY FUCKING CONCERN! THE WEB IS AN AMAZING MEDIUM FOR ROCK N ROLL AND MP3 PLAYS A BIG PART IN THAT, BURN AND GET FUCKED.
Pirating and the like has gone on for decades now and labels have still managed to survive. BOB FUCKING DYLAN is the most pirated man in Rock n’ Roll and isn’t it odd that he is also one of (if not THE) longest standing recording artists of his generation? Pirate CDs are not going to destroy society as we know it. They ARE going to put the power of music distribution back in the hands of the Artist as opposed to the LABEL tho. I make my own, therefore, it is MY responsibility to protect it, therefore, I care for it better, therefore the money and onus remains with me and not some fat cell phone toting arsehole in Auckland. Dig?
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WHOOPS... sorry about that chief But ...
WHOOPS... sorry about that chief
But you're still wrong- this is less of a topic starter and more of a personal declaration of your stance on a number of issues, all of which you seem to have confused.... I'm being rough, sorry. What do you mean by labels? The DIY thing is all good, believe me, but whats with the evil enemy stuff?
-foetus
(PSSST! feel free to read between ...
(PSSST! feel free to read between lines.)
he he he, yeh maybe there is a lot of info in there, but I don't believe I'm confused. Not for one second, nice try tho. Um, I'm not sure if I would have used the phrase "Evil Enemy" so we'll call that "Your phrase" and move on shall we? Now, I do believe that you got to the heart of things with the DIY (sic) bit. Thats my point too really, and I stand behind it, grunting. The less I care about pirating and the more I focus on my shit, the less important the issue becomes for me. NOW, this is not the case for anyone who owes recoupables to any given label. BUT, I believe we are on the same boat eg; a boat that writes, records, performs and distributes original kiwi "music". The difference is that no one is ever going to get ME on "stickytv" or "what now" telling the kids not to burn disks. OPPS, I believe that was yet another "Issue". Thanks for the memories.
[ http://www.mp3.com.au/stlucy/ ]
oooh, unless I get a FAT publishing ...
oooh, unless I get a FAT publishing deal. Then I might change my mind.
(wink)
[ http://www.mp3.com.au/stlucy/ ]
Yep- that's where it's at. Muso's ...
Yep- that's where it's at. Muso's gotta eat too! You wanna pay me for my songs, fine- show me a fair contract I understand and accept, and I'll sign whatever you want. There's no good or bad here, just business- you want what I got, I want money.
Evil enemy= ..."fat cellphone toting arsehole in Auckland."
You shouldn't copy CDs, your that ...
You shouldn't copy CDs, your that cheap you can't afford to buy the albums from the Warehouse or something??
The only stuff I download & sometimes burn is rare bootleg stuff, but no Kiwi stuff yet, cause I can't find any
(PPPSSSSSTTTTTTT!!!!!!! READ ...
(PPPSSSSSTTTTTTT!!!!!!! READ BETWEEN THE LINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Dude, "BOOTLEG" is just another way of saying "Pirate" which is just another way of saying "Stealing". I think you have missed my point. Again. I don't copy cds. BUT I AM that broke that I can't afford to get em, even at the warehouse. AND I aint the only one!!! I produce my own disks, from the burning through to the assembly of the case. I KNOW for a FACT that $25-$30 is NOT a fair representation of the "COST" of making a single unit. Now I know that you could argue that the bulk of this cost is how we "Value" music. But really, when its broken down, not much goes to the "Artist". Therefore, how much value is SOCIETY placing in the music when a multinational company can pay the artist a pittance of the gross sales revenue for any given "UNIT". Now, I'm not saying that the labels are EVIL or even particularly smelly, what I am saying is this: IF artists were making 100% or there-abouts of the net revenue for unit sales, would they really need to do dodgy promo campaigns against music pirating?. Mp3, streaming audio and yes, CDRs are bringing us closer to the realisation of this. I'm not saying copy Tadpoles album, I AM saying feel free to make a reasonable amount of copies of mine. Dig?
[ http://www.mp3.com.au/stlucy/ ]
Bootleg stuff that you can't buy at ...
Bootleg stuff that you can't buy at your local store, that what I mean.
Like live songs, b-sides, etc
Go and find a fucking job if you can't afford $20-$30 for a CD, a paper run will be up your alley.
//Go and find a fucking job if you ...
//Go and find a fucking job if you can't afford $20-$30 for a CD, a paper run will be up your alley
Gawd, that's a stupid thing to say. I'm sorry, no other way of putting it. It's just stupid.
What?? I didn't think so!!...
What?? I didn't think so!!
Burning cds is wrong no matter who the ...
Burning cds is wrong no matter who the artist is but especially if its a new zeland artist! They need all the money they can get because there doesnt seem to be much out there in NZ for these people and they need all they can get to help them to get their music out to the world!
If you've burnt a cd and you give it to people to copy that is still doing the same as burnig an origional copy! Those people are still not going out to buy an origional copy of the cd, there fore the band is losing money which they rightfully deserve as they have worked so hard to get it!
Anyways thats my point of view on this subject!
Good day peoples!:)
//Burning cds is wrong no matter who ...
//Burning cds is wrong no matter who the artist is but especially if its a new zeland artist! They need all the money they can get because there doesnt seem to be much out there in NZ for these people and they need all they can get to help them to get their music out to the world!
Awww, poor babies...
// Awww, poor babies.... That is a ...
// Awww, poor babies....
That is a rather fucked up dismissal of this arguement.
Consider how some of your favourite artists could respond to this.....
The music world is not a magical utopia where people don't have kids to support and other obligations beyond music that often threaten to undermine the whole exercise of making music.
If you put out a CD that you have spent hundreds of hours and possibly thousands of dollers producing just to have some mofo say "thanks very much, I'll take my $2 CDR from the Warehouse and make a copy of that". I believe you would have every right to be pissed off!
How is New Zealand music supposed to get out of the starting gate if you insist of tripping it up just to save you some cash?
I buy CDs (especially New Zealand music) if I like the artist enough to wish him to be able to continue to create music that in term stimulates me and gives me pleasure. It is a reciprocal (unstated) arrangement in my view.
// Most people are honest
Maybe not, (especially on the internet where there is little chance of anyone knowing what you are doing in your bedroom)
Burning CDs does not put the power back into the hands of the artist (especially in the case when the artist themselves arrange the packaging and labelling of the cds and employ another company to handle distribution), this sounds like one of the pseudo-socialist ideologies people like to dredge up when talking about the internet (this applies in the case, of course, of MP3s).
The internet is a doubled edged sword in this respect.
If the artists offers up his product to the net, then great!
If he doesn't, you are paying him the ultimate disrespect by pinching it off him.
comments please......
Cool it, dude. I was just commenting on ...
Cool it, dude. I was just commenting on how silly gonzmusic's post sounded.
i also feel strongly about this. i say ...
i also feel strongly about this.
i say download as much new, used and unheard of music you can...
as long as it's from oversea's. fuck it, a blank cd looks terrible as it is. kiwi music should be appreciated in it's fullest form possible. that is in it's first concieved skin (sleeve), attractiveness (artwork), statement (any words of commendation and love to those responible in upholding their dream) and almost as important as any of the fore-mentioned, the music (which you were GOING to be downloading for free...), so that's that. the entireity. download anything you please, but those few pennies you've saved to splash on yourself could in any degree fulfill it's worth going to an honest hard m/f'n yakka kiwi musician than anywhere else. and that's certainly not raving as far as to say that we're any better at producing artist's.
we shouldn't pay peanut's to hire monkey's.
invest properly in the music industry and SUPPORT the fine artistic talent that represent us all, or most of us and a whole lot of others.
I was commenting more on the choice of ...
I was commenting more on the choice of words than on the content of the post.
Some issues touched on here, that I ...
Some issues touched on here, that I would be interested to hear a lot of opinions on:
Copyright:
The intent of copyright is to preserve a contract between the creator and the consumer. The creator is garaunteed compensation for their work, for a limited time(bold). In exhange for this compensation, these copyrighted works are supposed to eventually become public domain. Free for future generations to use and love.
Not an Unlimited Stranglehold by Labels:
Copyright was not intended for record lables to maintain and indefinite control over music. They are abusing it, and twisting the concept of copyright. They entered a deal to distrinute the music for the artist, and thus took a cut, etc. This doesn't not give them the right to supercede the concept of copyright, to horde and control access to this media until the end of time.
Fair Use: (not sure about this in NZ, I moved here from Canada)
If I buy a CD, I'm allowed to make as many personal copies as I like. The record labels provide no garauntee that they will replace a lost, broken, stolen, scratched, etc CD. Therefore we are allowed to provide ourselves with copies(for non-commercial purposes). And if I buy a CD, am I buying the cd, or am I licensing the music on the CD (not totally sure of this myself). If I'm licensing it, I should be able to listen to this music in any format I choose. A couple gigs of my music in mp3 format on a portable MP3 player is a lot nicer than lugging around CDs. Should I not be allowed to do this?
Promotional Value:
Broadcast radio over the airwaves often pays very little if anything to play music over the airways.This is because they provide promotional value to artists, by exposing artists to the public. Does the internet not do the same thing for a larger group, and variety of artists? And it isn't it better at it than radio which is limited to a geographic area, as well as often limited to top 40 shlock and stuff the labels want you to listen to an buy since they just invested a shitload in promotion. Right now MP3 is the best format for distribution over the net, and usually it come from burning it off CD's
Other Revenue still Available:
I believe artists will continue to be compensated if they produce good work. Most people are honest, and wish to support music they like by attending gigs, buying cds, etc. Otherwise don't be surprised if stuff you like starts to dissappear. So artists could still make money by:
gigs, concerts - the better artists are, the more popular artists are the more money they can make.
selling cd's - I still buy cd's of bands I like. hmmm the smell of liner notes. also multi-media stuff is good.
royalties - mp3's won't stop artists making money from 'commercial' use of their music. such as in movies, ad's etc.
sponsership: actors get paid in advance by studios for 3 picture deals. Can't musicians do the same. based on percentages and yadda, yadda
what about new ideas, maybe pay-per-listen live streaming concerts.
There's a few thoughts, anyone with similar or differing opinions. Let's discuss.
//I believe artists will continue to be ...
//I believe artists will continue to be compensated if they produce good work.
That basically sums up my viewpoint, thanks.
//If I buy a CD, I'm allowed to make ...
//If I buy a CD, I'm allowed to make as many personal copies as I like. The record labels provide no garauntee that they will replace a lost, broken, stolen, scratched, etc CD.
i pretty sure you're only allowed to make one backup disc. and it cannot be used if the other disc is still fully functional.
//Broadcast radio over the airwaves often pays very little if anything to play music over the airways.This is because they provide promotional value to artists, by exposing artists to the public. Does the internet not do the same thing for a larger group, and variety of artists?
the point remains, artists are paid when their music is broadcast. surely this should apply to file-sharing if the broadcasting law is in effect?
//sponsership: actors get paid in advance by studios for 3 picture deals. Can't musicians do the same. based on percentages and yadda, yadda
that wouldn't work. how many times has an artist hit the big time and the next record flops? the film industry is different. the a-grade actors basically guarantee to pull in millions every big-studio film they star in. the music industry is a lot more fickle.
I remember seeing a lawyer on ...
I remember seeing a lawyer on "Breakfast" saying that nz copyright law has no concept of fair use and you're "not allowed" to copy a cd for any reason without permission.
Music is not the same as software as there is no end user license agreement that you give tacit approval to when you open the box or run the program.
Good points Vietnow, hemihystricl I ...
Good points Vietnow, hemihystricl
I must admit I'm still grappling with a lot of these issues, and trying to smooth out what I believe. I do support artists, I buy music, and attend live performances often. Artists must be fairly compensated of course, but at the same time it seems there is so much wrong with the current system. CD prices are too high, labels are being accused of price fixing, I'm being told I can't copy all my cd's onto my computer and make my own mix cd's out of music I own, nor transfer it to mp3 format, everything on commercial radio sounds the same, but alternative media access is being shut out. I think we have to be careful we don't give up rights, or shoot ourselves in the foot. Piracy is wrong, and there our laws to handle it. We don't need to start changing technology to prevent it, essentially we just give more power to those that already control it. They tell us what to buy, how to buy it, what format it it should be in, what it will be played on. Hey remember when business changed to suit consumer demand.
Christ, it's getting sad how paranoid I sound! I come on these forums, and listen to music to escape all this. Long Live Music! Cheers.
Wow, if our friend Julia Deans were to ...
Wow, if our friend Julia Deans were to visit this thread...
My only view on this is that original ...
My only view on this is that original cds are waaaayyyy cooler, it's like a collector thing. I mean how gay is opening up a cd wallet only to find a bunch of *wank*wank* copied cds? It's sorta a statement of your support for a band. It kinda stands to reason, that if a band was gonna profit more from kids copying their cds, then no-one would bother getting signed to record companies that are trying to prevent pirating.
[ http://www.fallout.co.nz ]
Yeah. Although I think the hole "burn ...
Yeah. Although I think the hole "burn and get burnt" thing is a load of shit, I don't burn CD's. As a collector of all sorts of things (music included), I enjoy buying original articles.
READ BETWEEN THE FUCKING LINES YOU ...
READ BETWEEN THE FUCKING LINES YOU BASTARDS!
I do believe you have all missed my point. Pirating or not is not the issue. THE ISSUE IS AS FUCKING FOLLOWS: Sony musics wonderful plan to rid the industry of pirating disks failed (GO AND BUY A VIVID MARKER IF YOU FEEL SO-INCLINED!) and now, 3 months down the track we have a rash of promotions featuring "Burn and Get Burnt" all over them. Renee is on "WNTV" and everywhere you look there is something bearing the logo. Watch the TV campaigns of all the major labels. They are banding together because this "THING" is getting out of control for them. YES record labels are good things. YES Pirating music is bad, but FUCK how are you gonna stop it? They couldn't even stop it when it was ALL analogue. Julia Deans? What? Baby, if you are here, pipe up. Bob Dylan said it best - "Your old roads are rapidly aging, Please get on the new one if you can't lend your hand, 'coz the times, they are a cangin'"
Oh yeh, if you wanna pirate something,
go here -> www.mp3.com.au/StLucy/
xxx Lucy
P.s: Jody Lloyd from "Dark Tower" MAY, or may not be starting a rock band to scam off the success of "Pacifier" and "The Datsuns".
p.ps: please excuse the typos, been drinkin Kilkenny.
[ http://www.lucy.com ]
It's funny how much more sense you ...
It's funny how much more sense you make when you just say something outright. It would be interesting to see if anyone can quantify the success or failure of the brn>brnt campaign.
I doubt it's stopping kids at school burning discs for mates, but it might be making people who are doing bulk burning and selling (like the dudes who got caught) think twice once they see the consequences.
THOSE GUYS? oh yeh, they are bad! Lets ...
THOSE GUYS? oh yeh, they are bad! Lets stop them, but do it through the current legislation instead of a poxy fucking "Marketing Campaign". YAY you rock FOAF. End of this topic, lets start a new one. OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH What about the mp3 sites paying thier APRA fees out of the money generated by advertising?
[ http://www.thehun.com ]
>> What about the mp3 sites paying ...
>> What about the mp3 sites paying thier APRA fees out of the money generated by
>> advertising?
What about them?
What about the price of CDs in Manners Mall being ten bucks cheaper than Lambton Quay? What's the economics there?
convenience. The suits on Lambton are ...
convenience. The suits on Lambton are willing to pay the extra $10, they have the cash to burn. People in the Manners Mall area are younger, have less cash.
i have something to add _ how about: ...
i have something to add _ how about: when people burn cds they pay the new zealand artist according to what they are get per unit in their record deal, eg. 50 cents to a fully signed band, $5 to a licenced album, $15 for the people who are doing it all themselves. easy.
isnt it interesting that the people trying to stop cd pirating are still advertising "make your own MINIDISC compilations"
fucking lame ass hipocrates:
here's a new idea: freely burn any cd which has sold over $20 000 copies in NZ.
or another: why not just put it on to mini disc - then when you get sick of it you can just copy over it // saving heaps of money in the long run!
READ BETWEEN THE ...
READ BETWEEN THE LINES:
BURN,
BABY,
BURN.
xxx Lucy
www.mp3.com.au/StLucy
copy
and
paste.
[ http://www.lucy.com ]
HI FOAF! (whispers) : "is this, a chat ...
HI FOAF! (whispers) : "is this, a chat room?"
[ www.thisroomisa"market".com dig it? ]
Well, chaps. (Hurriedly) and ...
Well, chaps. (Hurriedly) and lass'es,
I'm off to burn a bunch of RHCP and sell 'em at the Flea Market. Thanks for the chat, I'm satisfied with todays discussion. Lets start again on friday at, shall we say... 3 am. ? Be there or be BurNt, or something.
GO SEE THE DATSUNS THIS WEEKEND.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE DATSUNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SATURDAY
KINGS ARMS
(Tell them to pay me for this)
(That would be nice)
www.mp3.com.au/StLucy/
[ http://www.mp3.com.au/stlucy/ ]
On a 52k modem at 49.333 kps. A 3:30 ...
On a 52k modem
at 49.333 kps.
A 3:30 minute song
Takes 17.42 minutes to download.
THERE
My friends.
Is the value in the transaction.
The companys are taking OUR money for OUR products.
And then selling them back to us,
at a (insert figure HERE .............. ) % markup.
Now,
I can handle it when they do it to ciggarettes.
And even beer.
But MY music?
Nah.
www.mp3.com.au/lastnightintacoma/ (should be loaded before lunch, tommorrow)
( ......... THURSDAY!, dumass.)
xxx Lucy
[ http://www.mp3.com.au ]
man...i was copying every album under ...
man...i was copying every album under the sun on my old double cassette tape in the eighties, i don't think i ever purchased a actual album. Now i am made to feel bad when i copy the odd cd that i prehaps like just one song on and want to discover the rest of the album without forking out $30.
whats up with that.
Did anyone feel bad about copying ablums in the eighties....i didn't, i din't even think for a second it was wrong, just like taping movies off the television, Why are we being told it is really REALLY bad now, record companies are still maing as much money as they did in the 80s, shit....the nz music industry in in it's biggest boom for a fuck of a long time.
Tadpole need to play more live shows and better live shows, they cannot rely on albums sales alone.
fuck yeah. all the time. I had a fine ...
fuck yeah. all the time. I had a fine collection of C-90s with an album on each side. I did this mainly because my job delivering the Midweeker and Weekender community newspapers to residents of St Clair didn't provide me with the means to purchase all the original tapes I needed to stay in the cool crowd. My friend Mike was spoiled by his grandparents and it was always cool with him that I copied the latest poison or slaughter album.
We also bought a lot of second hand records. I've got a shitload of Kiss and Aerosmith at my parents place. Which begs the question: how are second hand and bargain bin CDs accounted for by record companies? I recently bought a Spoon CD at Real Groovy for a dollar. Surely that's the same as downloading it?
I think there might be two major ...
I think there might be two major differences nowadays that frighten (big) record companies:
1. medium conversion/upgrade
2. 'one hit wonder' payoffs are dropping
1) in the past everytime we switched to a medium technology, record, to 8-track,to cassette, to cd a lot of these companies made dough off selling the players to play this new medium, and the blank versions of of the medium. Also they made a lot of dough off the poor saps that had to upgrade their collections. 'Shit!, I have to buy all my Zepplin albums on CD again!' But people were willing because quality of sound was better. We havent had to do that with cd burners and mp3s. Most people had computers already, and mp3 players on your computer are free. Noone had had to pay to upgrade their collections to mp3. So they prolly havent made any money in that arena and they no like that.
2.) people download the one hit wonder songs. That catchy crap song. That got stuck in your head. The rest of the album sucks. But now we dont have to do that. They lose a lot of invested money on wasted promotion for these bands/singers they expected to get a major return on. It didn't matter how lousy they actually were. In the past if they invested a certain amount into advertising, radio play, etc. Enough poeple were brainswashed to get it. Now that doesn't work as well.
New bands.song writers creating good quality albums will still sell. If I like the work, I support it. That's how the model is supposed to work. You support what you like or it doesn't stick around. As much as I'd like to believe I'm special. I don't think I'm the only one that thinks that way. Out of 6 billion people I'm sure many people understand the concept, 'If I don't buy cd's, or in some way compensate the artist, I wont get the stuff I like'.
Seems most people on these forums do. Are we that special?
Yeah I think its ok to download that ...
Yeah I think its ok to download that one song, but not the whole album.
what difference does it make?...
what difference does it make?
There is the ability to have no ...
There is the ability to have no noticable sound loss in digital copies. On tapes each copy is lesser quality than the original, heck tapes in general will stuff up eventually. Copied CDs can be exact quality and last a hell of a long time.
squared, I'd add 3) new distribution ...
squared, I'd add
3) new distribution mediums and forms marketing work just as well for small labels and individuals as they do for the majors. It makes it harder to create a market where you have a select few "big artist" cash cows because people are spending their money elsewhere.
The brn>brnt campaign was meant to be ...
The brn>brnt campaign was meant to be more of an educational campaign rather than punitive. i don't agree with the tone of it at all but i understand the labels need to a) educate the public that this isn't the same as making those old compilation tapes - this is lossless duplication of an entire CD that people can sell for a profit -so essentially pirating. And b) the labels needed to voice their opinion on the whole thing, cos there's been so much rumour and scandal but very little firm stances taken.
I'm not sure if this campaign has anything to do with MP3s and distribution over the web. They might have to dream up another txt tlk slogan for that one.
FTR I'm with soldierboy - I like to buy a CD as an object - i enjoy the artwork, lyric sheets, thankyous everything that comes with it - it's part of the culture of that band.
//I'm not sure if this campaign has ...
//I'm not sure if this campaign has anything to do with MP3s and distribution over the web. They might have to dream up another txt tlk slogan for that one.
That's another thing - the txt tlk slogan is so bloody patronising. Oh, and I have one for MP3's, ahem:
"mstrb8rs mk CDs frm mp3s"
Yeah, it's a mouthful, but it rhymes (sorta).
Paul Martin just suggested something ...
Paul Martin just suggested something strange to me. Sonny probably sells alot of cdr related electrical goods huh? Not to mention mini-disk. Why are they complaining about its purchase and application? Odd, very odd.
------> www.mp3.com.au/StLucy/ copy.paste.
[ http://www.jaydonaldson.com ]
Not so odd when you take into account ...
Not so odd when you take into account the corporate nature of Sony. Each division is required to promote it's products and protect its market. Each division is essentially a separate entity that looks after itself and defends itself from every percieved danger, even if that danger belongs to the parent organisation.
That's why you can have one division of Sony encoruraging you to make mix cds and another saying don't do that with our music. That's also how the owners of Napster were also involved in a lawsuit against it.
Big business. It's too complicated if you ask me.
The record companies are shit scared, ...
The record companies are shit scared, all there reactions so far have been done as they grope in the dark trying to find where they last put their profit margin. They are lashing out at any noise with sticks and stones, instinct they are using not brains.
CDR's aren't only for music you know...
CDR's aren't only for music you know
Hey, nice one squared, nice one...
Hey, nice one squared, nice one
Does anyone have any facts of the ...
Does anyone have any facts of the profit/loss of the big five labels?
Some facts/rumours/propaganda:
If I'm correct the 2000 year was a record year for sales.
In 2001, rumours heard around local industry was 25% drop in sales for NZ sales.
WiredNews reported yesterday that sales are down by 5%. Labels continue to blame downloads.
My angle is if record companies were posting profits along the lines of Telecom and had a 5% loss, then download away.
how about profit/loss for smaller/indie ...
how about profit/loss for smaller/indie labels or individual artists? Are their sales going up or down?
good point foaf. I really want to know ...
good point foaf. I really want to know that.
Also, I think this whole thing has become somewhat of a scapegoat for artists who produce a shit album. The sales are down, must be all my shithead fans downloading it off the net. Not the fact that it stinks. No way. I'm with you mr Record Label man, it's defintely the internet. Let's get them!