Hey there,
I remember Orientation around '95 to '97- you had Bailterspace, Shihad, The Nixons, The Dead Flowers, Head Like a Hole... all these amazing bands, that you just couldn't wait to hear live because most of them had high-quality, high rotate singles on student radio, they were all on the writing incredibly relevant music that totally eclipsed anything produced overseas, at least for this fulla.
It's sad, and this is purely my personal opinion, but I haven't seen many bands take rock to that level since. Most have either broken up or dissolved, or simply aren't active enough to create that overwhelming hype, that sense that you were seeing something that really did deserve to be played at arenas all over the world. Music to believe in. I don't intend to pass judgement on bands that you may like now, just merely putting a personal opinion out there in the hope that anyone in a nz band who reads this, and knows they're onto something really special, will react positively and JUST DO IT! Because if I feel this way, there must be other people who feel this way too, waiting for even one song that inspires you so much you can wave it around like your country's flag. :)
-Long Live NZ Rock
Delicious
Digg
Reddit
Facebook
Google
Technorati
yip, orientations sucked this year. ...
yip, orientations sucked this year. re-orientation is looking more promising for rock music though.
yeah re orientation at massey ...
yeah re orientation at massey wellington is looking cool, bands like Mir and 6ft Thumb are playing, they are really hyping wellington bands worth a look i reckon. 18th of july in the massey wellington student bar.
what other bands are playing bro? is ...
what other bands are playing bro? is there a website?
I gess it wud b all ages? price ...
I gess it wud b all ages? price etc?
Its only up to us (nz population) to see that rock survives. Orientation may have sucked, bt i think rock is making a bit of a come back now. We are supportive, we just need to be MORE supportive.
GO KIWI ROCK!
- can original NZ music survive? Last ...
- can original NZ music survive?
Last thing I heard on Squeeze the other day was some knob from New Zealand on air ranting on about funding for 'radio hits' - did anyone hear this guy?
What an idiot. With these kind of narrow minded self appointed experts in charge of defining the future of our music no wonder things have taken a dive creatively. Almost no new NZ rock bands formed in the last two years deserves (or will get) any recognition from overseas on any level, it's that simple.
Yeah I saw that, radio hits suck. Its ...
Yeah I saw that, radio hits suck.
Its a bad thing in NZ you have to have 6 hit singles then you can make an album.
In the other countrys its a whole different story.
rdor if it was the same squeeze from a ...
rdor if it was the same squeeze from a few weeks back where Brendan was talking about NZOnAir's mandate then you weren't paying attention.
Also, I disagree with your call about any nz rock band formed in the last two years getting recognition overseas on any level. Do you care to define " recognition from overseas at any level" and put your money where your mouth is?
Tama, that 6 singles call is complete crap and you know it. Need I list all the albums released last year?
Maybe I was wrong, I don't know. But ...
Maybe I was wrong, I don't know.
But it seems that in NZ they put a bunch of singles before the album comes out
dont they do that everywhere?...
dont they do that everywhere?
Sure, lots of bands put out singles ...
Sure, lots of bands put out singles before they record albums. It's a good option if a band wants to get more exposure and perhaps funding for their album. But its not a requirement and the singles don't have to be "hits" as I took your previous comment to mean.
Singles are a funny thing. In the UK the singles chart is still quite important. It changes often and it's rare to have the same song at #1 for two weeks. That may be changing though, especially the UK industry follows the US lead where the RIAA and retailers seem hell-bent on killing singles so that people are forced to purchase the overpriced (and fixed!) albums.
rdor note where Brendan is coming from ...
rdor note where Brendan is coming from 'nz ON AIR' - his mandate is get NZ songs on NZ radio and therefore they fund what radio programmers want to play. They cannot tell programme directors what to play only how much. If you are unhappy with the quality of NZ music being played, start with your radio stations - tell them what you think of their playlisting. Once the programme directors know what the audience wants to play, they will want to play it - and then NZ On Air will want to fund it.
We are the ones that can and should define the future of our music.
hear, hear. we need to stop complaining ...
hear, hear. we need to stop complaining to friends and complain to whom it matters or just stop listening.
Well I think thats what the guy said on ...
Well I think thats what the guy said on Squeeze, you got to have 6 singles (or something like that) then NZ On Air will give you money to make an album.
But could fund your own album of course.
From the US bands I listen to, they have a single just before the release of their album then the next couple singles/videos later.
rdor, I would consider the way you ...
rdor,
I would consider the way you choose to deal with your dissatisfaction as passive. What we need is positive power for change- you have something worth saying, why not say it to a decision maker i.e. radio programmer, caller requests, and watch how things will improve. As Teina says, :"We are the ones that can and should define the future of our music." Knowledge is power- understand the way the industry dis-functions and manipulate it to your advantage!
Peace,
Foetus
all I'm saying is that the system at ...
all I'm saying is that the system at present effectively places almost complete control of funding and band exposure in the hands of this countries commercial radio programmers. What gives these people the right, ability or knowledge to define what the 'good stuff' ,as thay put it, is. I guess radio play will always be important - but it's a weird situation where music is made to serve the needs of a station (and their advertisers) rather than the other way round. How are we supposed to have any point of difference in the music when these guys deliberatly play only the blandest most uninspiring stuff just because it sits most comfortably next to the big comm. overseas stuff they play like Creed, Linkin Park, Incubus (shudder).
Matchbox 20 clones do nothing for our long term prospects and certainly won't make an impact overseas - why would anyone outside of NZ care, the've already plenty of stuff like that.
It's just sad that the better more individual sounding bands (cloudboy, trinity roots) had to get Creative NZ funding as special cases - anywhere else they would be perfect comm. fodder.
Who is Brendon (i'm an ignorant barstard),
"on any level" means both critical acclaim of an indep release of which their have been many over the years or for mass market appeal.
anyway how do pragrammers know what ...
anyway how do pragrammers know what people will like, are they psychic? they tell listeners what they should like and then claim to represent the mainstream listener while the poor kids just keep on listening 'cause they havn't heard anything better.
It's a 'viciouse cycle' of musical mediocrity that will eventually fall in on itself.
// anyway how do pragrammers know what ...
// anyway how do pragrammers know what people will like, are they psychic?
Actually I think you'll find it will be a combination of market research, requests and charts that determine what gets played.
// you got to have 6 singles (or ...
// you got to have 6 singles (or something like that)
you need to have 2 radio hits and the "potential" for another 4 radio hits, then you will get $50,000 and your record label is expected to match that. If you are not a "radio" band you can always talk to creative nz re funding. or then again if you are not going after radio hits, you could probably record your album for $50 on your mates computer anyway.
*Finally*, someone who has actually ...
*Finally*, someone who has actually bothered to look at the facts about NZ on Air Record Funding. Thank you Blink.
And $50000 is the upper limit of funding, not what you *have* to spend. The basic deal is NZ on Air will match you dollar for dollar on what your record company is willing to spend on the album up to that limit. So you could do a $5000 record and split it $2500/$2500 with NZ on Air.
// Yeah I saw that, radio hits suck.
Maybe the Indie Hit Disc (now called Heatseekers), another NZ On Air funded disc, that also gets sent to all the commercial stations, is more up your alley? Bands like Cloudboy & Trinityroots often (and these two probably already have) ended up on this 'less mainstream' compilation.
//you need to have 2 radio hits and the ...
//you need to have 2 radio hits and the "potential" for another 4 radio hits
Yeah thats it, I couldn't quite remember what the dude said
I'm geting sick of people on these ...
I'm geting sick of people on these boards who reply to reasonable posts like Foetusboys and Teinas with "All I'm saying..." and reiterating their complaints as if saying the same thing again makes it correct or more worthy.
rdor, the Brendan I mentioned before is the guy you called a knob and an idiot. And you are wrong with both those calls.
I'm still waiting for you to define "any recognition from overseas on any level" so we can make that bet.
Foaf, you might have missed rdor's ...
Foaf, you might have missed rdor's definition a bit above...
// "on any level" means both critical acclaim of an indep release
// of which their have been many over the years or for mass market appeal.
So, the bet is on? What's it to be...?
I think Foetusboy said it much better ...
I think Foetusboy said it much better than I could in the topic opener...
Brendon did a typical 'dodge and dive' routine by using jazz as an example of music unsuitable for radio play and thus NZ on Air funding. For gods sake nowbody expects jazz to be played on Z, More Fm or The Rock - but there is and could be plenty of really good original 'NZ sounding' rock that will be and has been dismissed as underground, alternative etc (their words) by the same individuals who talk about radio hits.
but I've forgotten why i'm whinging now... let's agree to disagree
Bet? must have missed that
This reveals the depth of just how how uninformed I am but ... don't the stations get the whole albums then play the tracks off them or must they get singles from hit disks or individual single releases, If bfm can afford the cost of an album of which they have thousands then why cant the mainstream station, nice to hear some of the other tracks off a cd sometimes but i suppose it's always been like that.
oops, did miss that. My bet would ...
oops, did miss that.
My bet would have to be a long term one. I bet an even hundy that by July 5 2007 an NZ band formed this century will pull a White Stripes and be hailed as the next big thing by the UK or US press. How about that?
[ http://www.longbets.org ]
is it just me or is this whole ...
is it just me or is this whole web-board thing wholly inappropriate for coherent conversation?
// don't the stations get the whole ...
// don't the stations get the whole albums
only if the label/band sends it to them.
// If bfm can afford the cost of an album ... why cant the mainstream station
I doubt bfm pays for any of the albums on their shelves, likewise commerical stations. Stations play what people (mostly labels) send to them. The bigger labels will also slip in concert tickets, posters, merchandising (for staff, and for giveaways), and even overseas trips as 'encouragement' to the stations to play their artists. There's no way local indie artists can compete with this sort of commerical onslaught on their own, hence the need for NZ On Air to step in and attempt a concerted, focussed effort through the various hit disc schemes (the hit disc, heatseekers, iwi), combined with a couple of 'pluggers' -- people who visit the stations and hassle them to play tracks of the discs.
The statistics show NZ music is now getting more airtime than ever before on commercial radio, largely thanks to NZ On Air. Just because some of it isn't they type of NZ music you want to hear on commercial radio, doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. The feelers and stellar*s of the world are opening the door for the 'less mainstream' bands to follow. Trinityroots will end up on commercial radio. Guarantee it.
// but there is and could be plenty of really good original 'NZ sounding'
// rock that will be and has been dismissed as underground...
who?
who? Dimmer, Paul Mclaney (Gramsci), ...
who?
Dimmer, Paul Mclaney (Gramsci), HDU, Ghost Club, Chicane, Alaisdair Galbraith, Bailterspace, Lanky, Damien Binder, Cassete.
Any of these ring a bell?...or maybe not
This type of argument is exactly the ...
This type of argument is exactly the reason we should not be depending on a few commercial radio stations to support upcoming/'non-mainstream' artists. It is the reason we should be doing all we can to support any attempt/organization/technology that distributes and/or exposes these artists. It is the reason NZ should avoid any US CARP like legislation that prevent independent/non-commercial internet radio from operating fairly. It is the best way to avoid homogenization and stagnation of music . See related topic below.
[ http://www.nzmusic.com/topic.cfm?i=2341 ]
// Dimmer, Paul Mclaney (Gramsci), HDU, ...
// Dimmer, Paul Mclaney (Gramsci), HDU, Ghost Club
// Chicane, Alaisdair Galbraith, Bailterspace, Lanky, Damien Binder, Cassete.
But rdor, I thought your argument was that NZ on Air wasn't helping out these so-called underground artists...
// plenty of really good original 'NZ sounding' rock that will be and has
// been dismissed as underground, alternative etc (their words)
// by the same individuals who talk about radio hits.
But, looking at that list, with the exception (maybe) of Chicane (who are probably in the process of getting some video action on the go - their album being quite new and all), and the UK-based Ghost Club, NZ On Air has funded all those artists to the combined value of tens of thousands of dollars, be it via video grants, hit/heatseeker discs support, or recording funds.
They've hardly been 'dismissed'. What more do you think NZ On Air should be doing?
eh what? so HDU, D.Binder, ...
eh what? so HDU, D.Binder, Bailterspace and Dimmer all got some bucks to make their videos, that Gramsci one looked like it cost a heap now that I think of it - I stand corrected.
that deals to me...
It must then really piss the bands (and NZ on air) off that the vids get played once then virtually never again (except maybe on Nu.8, M2 at 3:00am!) or that they still recieve no radio play on the afformentioned stations ( for Auck. anyway), ah well...
I doubt downloading and listening to music on the net will ever catch on, people like to own an album as a finished item, net surfing for music just ai'nt fun. Distribution and visibility matters - Half the albums mentioned are probably only available from a handfull of inner city stores throughout the whole country. What's the point of all that money when most people couldn't hope to find this stuff anywhere else?
someone mentioned e-mailing the ...
someone mentioned e-mailing the stations to tell them what you or me would like to hear.
Sounds like a good idea
On your marks....
rdor did make a good point... "the ...
rdor did make a good point...
"the system at present effectively places almost complete control of funding and band exposure in the hands of this countries commercial radio programmers."
This does seem to be the case and such a system can conceivably lead to a homogenisation of NZ music as the only those bands fitting mainstream format receive funding (a format heavily influenced by what the states were into 6months ago it seems).
Short of NZ On Air changing policy (which is something maybe to discuss but either way would be a solution that wouldn't impact until far down the track) the shorter term effect we the public can have is to educate our radio programmers. They don't need to be psychic if people would call in/email/write whatever and somehow let the pd know what they want to hear.
Don't underestimate the power of 'the street', 'underground' 'alternative' 'indie' whatever you want to call it, cos all around the world that's where the future of music is being defined. mainstream mines the 'alt' to uncover the next cool. Support independent bands and eventually radio programmers (assuming they're any good at their jobs) will be all over them.
"anyway how do pragrammers know what ...
"anyway how do pragrammers know what people will like, are they psychic? they tell listeners what they should like and then claim to represent the mainstream listener while the poor kids just keep on listening 'cause they havn't heard anything better.
It's a 'viciouse cycle' of musical mediocrity that will eventually fall in on itself. " -rdor
This is the real problem. N.Z Commercial programmers are the most conservative narrowminded music (fans?) in the world. Up to now it's been useful to have the likes of Stellar and the feelers to at least give them something to get their head around and actually get them used to the idea of looking at local content. But ya can't use programmers tastes to determine the direction of new zealand music, even commercial music. Let's face it these people would have turned down
Beck, Nirvana, Enimem....if they had been new zealand artists without any track record. They shit themselves at the thought at having to have
music taste so they happily recommend Bush soundalikes The feelers or Garbage soundalikes Stellar or the whole current "matchbox 20" Breathe/zed/ augustino crap that seems to be getting funding now.
I understand NZOA's initial conservatism say 5 years ago when there was no play for anyone but the picture is different now. Commercial radio programmers are the fucking problem not part of the solution. If you actually did a poll on them you'd find them to be predominantly
white male middleclass 45 + year olds who have come up through the ranks of a stale radio industry rather than from any musical background. And they know what da kids like?
// Almost no new NZ rock bands formed ...
// Almost no new NZ rock bands formed in the last two years
// deserves (or will get) any recognition from overseas on
// any level, it's that simple.
So, what's new? You could count the number of NZ rock acts that have had any impact overseas at all since the birth of rock'n'roll in the '50s on one hand...
And I don't know about that word 'deserves' -- lots of local bands surely deserve success (far too many for them to all get it, of course, such is the nature of the biz), whether it be on a local or international level. Not every new NZ band is a derivative Incubus/Bizkit/Matchbox20 wannabe clamouring for a spot on the next NZ On Air Hit Disc.
(Having said all that: rdor, you wouldn't consider the recent international forays & record/distribution deals that the likes of the Datsuns, the D4, and Sommerset have struck up as success?)
a little off topic from rock, but in ...
a little off topic from rock, but in regard to NZ music exposure, who's been listening to AotearoaNZ in London, hmmmm.
I've had it going for the last two ...
I've had it going for the last two hours or so. Very nice. Caught the end of Salmonella Dub and they sounded pretty good.
I'm not sure I subcribe to the idea ...
I'm not sure I subcribe to the idea that a band pointedly decides to play in the style of a succesful american band... We can be so critical sometimes without even realising we're treading all over someone's heart and soul- or presuming that commercial success motivates New Zealand musicians more than love, which with the size of our country's music industry and the amount of success anyone can expect from it is cynical in the extreme! It's not worth being 'in it for the money' in NZ, there's no money to be had and you'll be hacked down like the tall poppy you are. I see nothing wrong with being in it for the money either, it's just that you're probably in the wrong country to do it.
Does our musical appreciation depend entirely on the music being without comparison? Most popular music can't even be created without having first been taught, shown or learnt from other sources. Where do we draw the line between 'hat-tipping' and 'ripping off'? What do we expect from an original Kiwi band? Do we expect too much?
amen. sorry i havent answered your ...
amen.
sorry i havent answered your questions but thats a very nice post mate
What do we expect from an original new ...
What do we expect from an original new zealand band? originality. We have that in spades. The depressing thing is to reach 70% of the population through commercial radio there is a bland
expectation by local programmers to sound like someone else. The slow Americanisation of Pacifier is a case in point although amittedly they are now trying to break the states. The hogging of Stellar/the feelers/Klee/Anika Moa on playlists, bands that could come from any western country in the world. It's so bad that a band like salmonella dub with a proud but not overbearing new zealand take on their genre of music aren't played on commercial radio after sales of 60,000 on the last two albums yet they'd be sure to play the next cheesy,soft reggae rnb dance flop Matty J puts his name to. These people can't get their head around a local intrepretation of popular culture unless it has really obvious bland American top 40 stylings. Then pathetically sometimes we try and sell last years American pop back to the world and they've all moved on hence our mega selling bands dismal failures in Australia and non-releases in the states and elsewhere.
I agree with you, but disagree too. How ...
I agree with you, but disagree too. How can radioplay be the goal? There are a lucky few who happen to enjoy that their songs are getting radioplay, but radio is such a fickle thing... as you say, the american music industry seems to call the shots. What satisfaction any NZ musician could have being inside the top 20 can only be fleeting. So often you'll be playing your songs to an empty hall, yet you can't stop playing because music is simply who you are, what you do, and you can't stop being you. It's a part of you, inseperable from you, otherwise as soon as you got discouraged you would find yourself able to actually give up! So full credit to any NZ band who's hung on through to airplay level- it is hard work, but you must be doing this because you love it!
But I take the point that in the end popular radio stations bow to what's popular overseas, which may lead to a watering down of what's special about OUR music. Still, that's only true if radioplay is your goal as a musician. What about honing and refining your art, reaching people via your live shows, actually enjoying the creation of new sound, your interaction with the musicians in your band... what about FUN! What about a good time?
That's what reached me, when I talk about the old days, that sense that the musicians at the orientation shows fully enjoyed themselves and the atmosphere they created was so positive! Leaving a crowd feeling like they've witnessed something quite special leads to a devoted fanbase, more record sales, more radio requests...
In short, it's obvious radio is just one piece in the puzzle, but radio is reactive and passive. The actions and reactions of the listenership dictate their every move. The american industry may be strong, but they can't compete with a hardworking New Zealand musician or band with great songs and an electrifying live show!
Long live NZ rock!
-FOETUSBOY
"Bailterspace, Shihad, The Nixons, The ...
"Bailterspace, Shihad, The Nixons, The Dead Flowers, Head Like a Hole... all these amazing bands, " - foetusboy
Most of the bands above that you mention got ground down by an unreceptive wider music industry. Touring is hard financially and emotionally on a band. Bands get to a level when they need to have other avenues going.
"In short, it's obvious radio is just one piece in the puzzle"
Once you've built a fanbase it's the only piece left in less you want to slog it out on the road forever. I agree with you identifying the mid-90's as an exciting live period and I don't think todays bands compare well. Radio has slowly been forced to play more N.Z music (a good thing) but
has set up criterias for airplay that seem to be producing a blandness amongst our year 2002 N.Z bands and ignoring the good oil (again) because they side with MOR over originality every time. But Yay the datsuns...this is a case of point of a band winning over overseas major league record companies and a fat advance to boot before the slow dinosaur heads of the local radio scene knew they existed. I wish we could showcase all our cool bands to london record company fatcats before they got put through the "bland" machine of the local radio and record industry.
Ultra- I can't accept that radio ...
Ultra-
I can't accept that radio directs the way a musician creates when there's no incentive for them in the end- there's everything to lose.
:"... the only piece left... slog it out... hard financially and emotionally"
I don't see it as being as bleak as you do. Pardon me, I'm an optimist! (smiling)