Hello there, I am a US pop/rock producer, currently in New Zealand working with an artist on some pre-production before returning to home. I have listened to a fair amount of NZ music in the last couple of years and can say, that whilst I belive the artists have written some good songs, often the mixing/production seems to have let them down.
When I produce a band or an artist, I am ALWAYS mindful of serving my customer - i.e. the record company! With that in mind, I am aware that there is an expectation that what I produce is commercially viable (i.e. moves products off shelves and thus, makes money).
I have to pose a question to NZ producers then.....what does production mean to you, and who is your customer? From what I have seen, there seems to be a fair bit of a "less is more" approach to alot of mixes I have heard from NZ, not to mention some songs that just don't have the "hook"!!
With the talent I have spotted in NZ, I think it only fair to offer these artists and their record companies quality mixes - sometimes more is more remember, and comments from within the circles in Los Angeles resonate the same tune when talking about NZ artists......."great tune, pity about that jangly guitar bit....".
If you want to be international, BE international. And before I get shot down in flames from all you "...we just want to be true to the music" types, realise that you can only make money from "being true to your customer".
Regards
Peter Collins
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Hmmm. Interesting feedback and a good ...
Hmmm. Interesting feedback and a good topic.
Ive found NZ music to be extremely varied in the production values of what makes it to radio. You also are probably aware that some bands arent too fussed about the money side of things, and i would think that in these cases the customer would be the "the band" / "the music".
however, for all the other stuff out there, I have found in general to be nowhere near as slammed and as loud on the mastering front as the US produced music. The Loudness Battle aside, the pure aesthetics of some of the mixes are definately questionable - but are distinctly NZ sounding, and perhaps this is what alot of NZ producers are aiming for - otherwise there would not be an identifiable 'NZ sound' production wise - which in itself is a sweeping generalisation (purely for arguements sake) but i ask you this - In the world of audio, you know the "there is no right or wrong - just different" approach is largely adhered to. Now, if we want to sound American - we go to America and make records there (like Anika Moa). So if we (and this is assuming it is possible) start making everything sound like you do, what about it would be NZ? - and do you really think that this would improve the global profile of NZ Music?
Would be good to hear a few credits as well as some examples of the work you are reffering to if you dare (may open yet another can of worms!) :)
zzzzzzzzzARCzzzzzzzzzz
This is not on topic, but reference to ...
This is not on topic, but reference to Anika Moa is a bit outdated in this respect..
Isn't that whole production/ hook ...
Isn't that whole production/ hook thing a bit like telling a bike-riding, dreadlocked, planet-saving hippy that he could pull more chicks if he cut his hair and drove a Porsche?
Anyone with delusions of conquering the mainstream commercial music-as-commodity world with their songs will no doubt heed that well-meaning Business of music Round turnTable advice.
The rest of us, quite content to craft out our niche of perfectly well-recorded (but not sterile/ not overcompressed) quirky pop tunes, and gain some satisfaction (if not wealth) from our work will just keep on cycling in our own direction, thanks mate.
Yeah why don't we have over compressed ...
Yeah why don't we have over compressed guitars and souless pop....
oh wait...
Blindspott
Fly My Pretties
The Feelers
I think you pretty much told everyone ...
I think you pretty much told everyone which path you're on when you mentioned your most important customer, the label.
In a country where the biggest selling album of the last year (7 x platinum or so at last count) was done by a group who released independently, with an almost nil-marketing budget. And it is not only NZ success. They have travelled internationally more than most if not all other NZ groups over the past year and more. Further, the greater amount of independently released music in NZ has limited the need for having the label being the call-point of direction. And, following on, a lot of these groups have done well overseas without the need of the label. I play in a group called opensouls. We are not a huge group, nor will we ever in all probability reach the top of the NZ top 40, but that isn't the point of why we do this. Our album is ticking along nicely, our own label has now released a few 7"s, a 12", and is looking at our further projects. In an interesting side, our latest 7's sold more in the UK than in NZ.
So where does this leave the production? Perhaps there is a different take on production over here (I refuse to see it as worse in any way possible!) and hence the views that you and a few of your colleagues have. But I think that your perspective comes from an angle that in all reality (and this is not a, well we can't make it on a label so let's set out to be nothing but "independent"), a large portion of NZ music is still done with the DIY attitude. But it relates to the primary market, that of NZ, and further, is gaining more and more of a following, especially in Europe where I for one see our music being a lot more relevant than the US market (except for the notable more indie based labels).
Fah, I dunno if I even made sense and I have now lost so much focus that i will post this ad-hoc and see how this whole discussion pans out.
Choice one
put the knives down chippa...
put the knives down chippa
But the element's still on.......
But the element's still on....
//I have to pose a question to NZ ...
//I have to pose a question to NZ producers then.....what does production mean to you, and who is your customer? From what I have seen, there seems to be a fair bit of a "less is more" approach to alot of mixes I have heard from NZ, not to mention some songs that just don't have the "hook"!!
I think it would definatly be fair to say that NZ has a "less is more" approach to that side of things. We seem to like our songs sounding like they would live (bearing in mind that for 99% of NZ bands that live is playing in a pub) and the less fiddling the better it would seem. As far as hooks go, we have our songs with hooks, but used to much and people find them a bit cliche - as the NZ public has a low level of support for NZ music I think it would be fair to say that a lot of artists don't worry about what the public want out of music and just do what they want.
//With the talent I have spotted in NZ, I think it only fair to offer these artists and their record companies quality mixes - sometimes more is more remember, and comments from within the circles in Los Angeles resonate the same tune when talking about NZ artists......."great tune, pity about that jangly guitar bit....".
Ahhh well thats just the yanks not getting it - theres almost nothing more NZ than a jangly guitar!
//If you want to be international, BE international. And before I get shot down in flames from all you "...we just want to be true to the music" types, realise that you can only make money from "being true to your customer".
You need to be aware that NZ is a country with only 4 million people with a low level of support from the public - which makes it very hard for an artist to actually earn money (well enough to actually live off) from music. I think it would be fair to say that most artists support their music with a day job - and when you're in that sort of situation you have the freedom to care less about the public and more about what you're producing.
// theres almost nothing more NZ than a ...
// theres almost nothing more NZ than a jangly guitar!
aye
(This is directed at the ...
(This is directed at the mainstream)
As far as production is concerned:
I would much rather have clean spacious natural production rather than;
over produced, too much compression, terrible ear for natural frequencies of instruments(including wiping entire ranges of frequencies), Engineering almost exclusively for radio transmission. and putting the click in kick drums.
Why do Americans always think that the rest of the world looks up to them and wants to do everything their way.... (well some retailers might) ... I don't suck no yank cock.
I wonder if he was here producing 48 May or some other american facsimile band....
man that's some terrible post ...
man that's some terrible post structure right there, sorry it was a quick rant
hah i knew this topic would be a good ...
hah i knew this topic would be a good one.
I have a few more things to add - first things first
///We are not a huge group, nor will we ever in all probability reach the top of the NZ top 40
>> dam modest NZ musos! it wouldnt surprise me if i saw u guys on the top 40 within the next year (a tad off topic but had to say it - you make some sweet sweet music Opensouls)
//Yeah why don't we have over compressed guitars and souless pop....
oh wait...
Blindspott >>>> as american as NZ music gets u can hear the compressors pumping....eeew
Fly My Pretties >>>> cant say i agree on that one, pretty dynamic album to my ears
The Feelers >>> who? :)
////This is not on topic, but reference to Anika Moa is a bit outdated in this respect..
>>> please tell me who then, is not outdated "in this respect"
now down to business
/// I think it would be fair to say that most artists support their music with a day job - and when you're in that sort of situation you have the freedom to care less about the public and more about what you're producing.
>> This is definately true, but i think thats what Peter is getting at- for whatever reasons our productions values are the way they are, its obviously not hitting the mark in the USA.
But this cant be so in all cases in terms of both the music and where 'internationally' the music is released, there is nothing 'Jangly' about FFD or Open Souls or Salmonella Dub - and as Chippy even said - "our latest 7's sold more in the UK than in NZ"
So USA aint the rest of the World is it? Theres all of Europe to include aswell - dunno bout you Peter but id say that thats pretty dam International to me.....
/// Why do Americans always think that the rest of the world looks up to them and wants to do everything their way?
>>>Yes - good call> why do u think we should take our production values and turn them into Americanisation? - What your opinion suggests Peter - is that unless we make stuff sound American then it wont hit over there? as i said earlier, that would then defeat the meaning of the term 'NZ sound'. do u think its the punters or the labels that will notice the difference ?
As for the melodic hooks - I do tend to agree slightly but there are plenty of songs that are nothing but hooks, is this the main issue or are the mixes your main gripe?
zzzzARCzzzz
<b>Peter Collins wrote:</b> If you want ...
Peter Collins wrote: If you want to be international, BE international.
I read:If you want to be American, BE American.
Put your money where your mouth is ...
Put your money where your mouth is Peter - link us to something you've produced. I have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be over-compressed horrible MOR bland 90's FM rock.
<i>"Some other hits produced by Collins ...
"Some other hits produced by Collins include Philip Bailey and Phil Collins' number three R&B/number two pop hit "Easy Lover," Bon Jovi's number four pop hit "Always," the number eight R&B/number ten pop hi "Pass the Dutchie" by Musical Youth, Tracy Ullman's number eight pop hit "They Don't Know," and Indigo Girls' Swamp Ophelia, Alice Cooper's Hey Stoopid, and Blancmange's "Don't Tell Me." ~ Ed Hogan, All Music Guide"
Wow, what a flame starter this is! ...
Wow, what a flame starter this is!
I reckon peter that your influence within NZ music might be short and sharp. To say that NZ music doesn't sound international.... well, there is some pretty good reasons for that.
Kiwi bands fall victim to their sophomore albums here in NZ... the old recipe repeats itself time and time again. Big label signs 'it' band... over produces the music, alienates NZ music within it's own country by trying to stack up against the produced sound of US imported music, and by the time album no/ 2 is dropped.... usually the band is too by their label. Or, alot of bands want to get out of their contracts with Sony. Universal.... whatever.
Not only that, but because we're so small, and the market has to keep moving with new bands and flavours, there's only so much of a shelf life for the 'it' bands.
NZ doesn't have the same level of equipment as the US. What IS popular IS the sound of an SSL 9000/4000 console. Tape (too expensive in NZ), and beautiful fucking slammed compression. The gear is one thing, but what NZ production industry lacks is an exposure to this level of gear which inherently develops the expertise, and has led to the ommission of this style of production in kiwi land.
Most of NZ's longest standing bands understand their own market... and sorry to say Peter, but in the grand scheme of a Kiwi bands career, you really don't matter much to us, the band, or the record company. Hey, maybe you can sell a few copies quickly, and maybe you can appease the inflated masses from your home country. But anyone who's worth their salt for the good of NZMusic should be spending more time in the trenches with the true pioneers, and the future bands of NZ music..... NOT assimilating what has been already done o'seas.
he's talking about production values, ...
he's talking about production values, not essentially the quality of the music or song writing
Thats the biggest load of shit I have ...
Thats the biggest load of shit I have ever read.
Your biggest problem is not understanding that bands are the 'Client"
Come here to England and we'll see how many jobs you get.
Dick.
//Come here to England and we'll see ...
//Come here to England and we'll see how many jobs you get.
//Put your money where your mouth is Peter - link us to something you've produced.
I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate a bit here (yeah I know the Catholic Church no longer uses one but they're still useful here).
A cursory google search reveals that Peter Collins is English. Started his career there with Pete Waterman acheiving sucess with Nik Kershaw and Musical Youth, the two of them moved to the US where Peter Collins has since done albums for Rush, Queensryche, Jewel, Brian Setzer, Indigo Girls, Elton John and LeAnn Rimes.
The Question I have is what is he doing here? My guess is Michael Fay's Daughter.
//The Question I have is what is he ...
//The Question I have is what is he doing here? My guess is Michael Fay's Daughter.
Oops that reads rather bad. Obviously I don't mean he's here 'doing' Michael Fay's Daughter. I mean working on her record.
who's micheal fay? or his daughter ...
who's micheal fay? or his daughter for that matter?
From my rant in the bar on ...
From my rant in the bar on compression...
//What really grinds my gears is the over use of compressors y'know, it's lazy.
//Look at fine classical releases and jazz releases. shit all compression there, just perfection at the miking stage and balance in the mixing stage, if you mike correctly you get less spikes, so the overall sound can be brought up in the mix safely
//quiet passages are meant to be quiet for a reason!
//Att: Engineers
//Use you ears people, that's what they are there for!
I'm sure hollis will agree....
The self titled Mark Hollis Album is quite possibly the greatest piece of engineering.
If you want to hear what music should sound like when properly mixed listen to that album..
and anything from the ECM label
[ external link ]
Oh great - Michael Fay's Daugter So ...
Oh great - Michael Fay's Daugter
So is she like NZ's Paris Hilton....
Or does she actually have a use...
// A cursory google search reveals that ...
// A cursory google search reveals that Peter Collins is English. Started his career there with Pete Waterman acheiving sucess with Nik Kershaw and Musical Youth
Wouldn't it be good if we could be in his shoes? Even if it was for just one day.
what examples of recordings aren't ...
what examples of recordings aren't that well produced? don't be scared - i want solid examples because there's quite a few approaches that producers here take. besides the budget reasons of course. likewise, what is an example of what you'd consider a decent recording?
this interests me, because my band is under going demo recording ourselves and the way we're recording is way different to the way this guy Justin records because he records for mainstream labels
and people should lay off this guy, he's obviously someone who's well versed in the business and knows what its about. of course his client is the record label, they're who is paying his bills at the end of the day.
Having large budget helps but it isn't ...
Having large budget helps but it isn't essential you can get great results with a little patience ..... and plleeeeaaaasssssseeeeeee just listen to what is going on, and relax.
Just remember early jazz sounds great, and their budget was extremely low
//I have to pose a question to NZ ...
//I have to pose a question to NZ producers then.....what does production mean to you, and who is your customer? From what I have seen, there seems to be a fair bit of a "less is more" approach to alot of mixes I have heard from NZ, not to mention some songs that just don't have the "hook"!! With the talent I have spotted in NZ, I think it only fair to offer these artists and their record companies quality mixes - sometimes more is more remember, and comments from within the circles in Los Angeles resonate the same tune when talking about NZ artists......."great tune, pity about that jangly guitar bit....".
Well, that's obviously a dig for a response, and people far more qualified than I have responded- but while we're busy painting the music of eachother's countries in homogenous broadstrokes, are we not forgetting the obvious? No indie scene in the states, huh? No lo-fi, less-is-more movement there? Everything gets the treatment?
I'd say you'll find a fair bit more 'underproduced' material per capita in the states than you'll find in New Zealand. But this involves a broad, sweeping generalisation on my part ;-)
//No lo-fi, less-is-more movement ...
//No lo-fi, less-is-more movement there?
In fact go and read "user reviews" of any Mountain Goats record since Tallahase and you'll find out that a large number of people will moan when a guy stops singing his songs directly into a whirring ghetto blaster thats so noisy the mechanism is louder than the tape-hiss and starts recording in a "real studio". It's been nearly five years and still they bring it up.
see how the nationalist music ...
see how the nationalist music propaganda has bitch dipped you all, some guy comes and tells ya'll the country's production sucks and you're all cleverness and inposts.
why not let god defend new zealand and everyone else just shut the fuck up?
Why is it pandering to some ...
Why is it pandering to some nationalistic egoism when your argument seems based in upon tall poppy syndrome, seemingly requesting that we keep our opinions on our own music to ourselves when doing what? Blindly taking someone's view with no opportunity to add to the discussion? There is absolutely no problem I see in NZers adding views to an overseas based producer's insights into an aspect of our music. Doesn't mean automatically that we all disagree totally with the poster, and indeed, perhaps with more information posted by the original poster, then the debate can continue further.
with more information posted by the ...
with more information posted by the original poster, then the debate could begin....
face it you took the bait- he made a weak blanket generalization about new zealand production and people took the bait- making the same kind of generalizations.
having said that your post is good...
having said that your post is good
//I think it would definatly be fair to ...
//I think it would definatly be fair to say that NZ has a "less is more" approach to that side of things
//Why do Americans always think that the rest of the world looks up to them
//our productions values are the way they are
//that would then defeat the meaning of the term 'NZ sound'
//I read:If you want to be American, BE American.
//But anyone who's worth their salt for the good of NZMusic should be spending more time in the trenches with the true pioneers
nationalistic crap
Here I am - Hey you evil American leave ...
Here I am - Hey you evil American leave NZ alone... OR else.
Now Rope.... hush
AARGH! AARGH!! (scratches out ...
AARGH! AARGH!! (scratches out eyes)
Argh, the linky on your profile should come with a warning.
How is this (what I said in my first ...
How is this (what I said in my first post),
//I think it would definatly be fair to say that NZ has a "less is more" approach to that side of things
...nationalistic crap? It is simply an observation on my part about the NZ approach to production. I have a particular loathing for nationalistic rhetoric so why would I indulge in it now?
You're doing a good job trolling though.
Hey don't mess with the ...
Hey don't mess with the creator
Don't forget to order your screensaver!
[ http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/ ]
bah. that presentation doesn't even ...
bah. that presentation doesn't even have a decent punchline.
[ http://www.400monkeys.com/god/ ]
GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE! I'll smite ...
GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE!
I'll smite you down Noizyboy, so help me, Me!
I don't admit at all that I took any ...
I don't admit at all that I took any bait. I worked with a Welsh producer a month back for a few days, Greg Haver and thus have found the whole Producer debate in general very interesting since then. As I come from groups that don't rely on an external Producer, I have had a greater interest in their views, how they are viewed, how they are utilised etc etc. Therefore, to see such a post as this, for sure I wanted to wade into a debate as has come up. If that is taking the "bait", by entering into a discussion pertaining to music form my country and how it is percieved in our non-primary markets, then by all means let's go fishing.
Add to it, don't detract from it.
not everyone chippa, take it easy. ...
not everyone chippa, take it easy. there's a list of quotes ablove, not all posters fell in the trap
you gotta face that you took my bait...
you gotta face that you took my bait
So if he is trying to bait us, what is ...
So if he is trying to bait us, what is he baiting us with, and where is he baiting us to.
It's not like he is going to get anything out of it.
Neither are you.
[ external link ]
NZ poetry is a shocker...
NZ poetry is a shocker
The only way I see me taking the bait ...
The only way I see me taking the bait is to also see my point in that you have added nothing to this conversation. Quoting other people's posts without adding nothing but that they are nationalistic tracts, has proven that you have added nothing. Moreover, by this even being discussed in this topic, which of course is far removed from the actual topic of this particular forum debate, it re-inforces my point. If we're arguing semantics, then we ain't arguing the topic.
That wasn't intentionally poetry. but ...
That wasn't intentionally poetry.
but you obviously took it that way why are you picking on me you little scamp, all I did was type a few words that happened to rhyme and you go and rip the shit out of me, well it's not bloody well good enough, if your elders were with you right now they would clip you around the ear, trying to stir everyone up, and now i think i have rsi and its all your fault my car pool tunnels are swelling I'll be sending you my doctors bill, and the bills for all the rehabilitation and psychologists bills
if you're not clear on what i added, ...
if you're not clear on what i added, i'll rephrase what i'm adding,
blame canada is attacking new zealand production in a stereotypical manner
alot of posters are playing into his assumptions by defending nz production in a stereotypical manner
rather than possibly
handling his blame canada's assertions on a case by case basis (of his own work- own perspective), people have fallen into the trap of making similarly minded but opposing parochial blanket statements about nz production.
the examples i quoted are evidence of the gerneralization and nationalistic parochialism
if you still don't get it, go shag your ram New zealand producer
this is what i'm adding
this man issuing these NZ production stereotypes
is fully warrented in making them
as evidenced by the blanket stereotypical 'kelping NZ on the air' patriotic defensiveness.
perhaps you think i add nothing because i don't address production specifics
but neither does he really in any great detail
he just addresses something he deems to be NZ production
which is a non specific relative perception
the actual topic, again is a freely perceived idea
you can get all uber new zealand and tell me this is not a 'new zealand standard' contribution,
but personally i think i address the parochialism of both sides even handedly and without mercy
i think hollis said it best
and despite the goodness of your original post
i'll give you one too
DICK!
adrian carl i didn't rip any shit from ...
adrian carl i didn't rip any shit from you
unless of course, you are new zealand poetry
back in your box, get your mum to pay your bills
Ermm ok.. but who told you that mum ...
Ermm ok.. but who told you that mum pays my bills?
I may have been baiting then you realise...
it was all in good humour... well my humour... which is no humour...
Ha ha ha, awesome. Those who can't ...
Ha ha ha, awesome. Those who can't do....