Which capitalist societies do have banks open on Sundays? (Incidentally, which capitalist societies don't have christian undercurrents?) Hell, in France, they're not only not open on weekends, but shut for a 1.5hr lunchbreak. Is the time from 4:30 to 5:30 that banks are closed also dictated by christianity?
And when is having a day off (for whatever reason) a bad thing?

You know I used to get angry about the saturation of Christianitism in this country, and the western world for that matter.
That was until I realised That I am God

//and Spain? In some places the shops still close for the three hour afternoon siesta

France is rather like that. I think officially most places are closed between 12:30 and 2pm, but in reality, it's pretty dead after 12... so you may as well just go and have a long slow lunch and a few wines.

firstly in reply to limegreen. i can only think of one capitalist economy offhand that has banks open on sundays, incidentally, the world's fastest growing economy. but i'm sure if you get your little wiki fingers typing you;ll find a few more.

as for this question

//Is the time from 4:30 to 5:30 that banks are closed also dictated by christianity?

no, don't be a stupid bastard, it's not dictated by anything, but it's there to protect the traditional siesta of the culture

and re: the day off comment. these places aren't manned by the same staff 7 days.

spain's economy is crap

but you guys keep singing, and at the awards ceremonies, as you sit there listening to good kiwi music industry gravy train riders spraying jizz all over your amateur musician faces, consider sweden, and consider the fact that new zealand music, much as your buried up to your big caucasion noses in hype is a drop in the ocean that hasn't repeatd the success of don't dream it's over for 20 years.

as for your economic growth. just keep giving tax payer paid interest free loans to weapons software companies.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to have a drink and enjoy me weekend.

Firstly, apology for confusing the issue with the word "their" by which I obviously meant "its". My understanding is that a capitalist infrastructure is wholly focussed on accumulating capital. I don't think we disagree there. However, I think that inevitably a capitalist system results in entities (businesses or individuals) with money taking advantage of entities with less money.

//i really sense you're confusing concepts like 'monopolisation' or 'big business' with capitalism. correct me if i'm wrong.

I don't think I'm confusing anything. Capitalism = the best, smartest, most deserving small businesses growing and growing until they become unwieldy and conscience-free large businesses. It's extremely difficult for large businesses to avoid making decisions that damage communities, small or large, in favour of maintaining their profits.

I can live (quite happily) with capitalism as long as it's moderated by democracy (and do-gooders of the charitable, green or open-source ilk). If that's part and parcel with ridiculous laws that prevent banks from opening on a sunday, then that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

That doesn't mean I'm comfortable with the government bailing out businesses in the name of supporting kiwi employees, or kiwi bank account holders, or kiwi air travellers. I'm not paying tax to prop up unprofitable or badly run private companies. I think you're confusing the debate by mixing up a bunch of entirely unrelated issues.

[ external link ]

I didn't read much of that because it was long and got very murky, so I'll just address the first part.

Forgive me for sloppy shorthand then, but I think you're splitting hairs. It's not possible or useful to separate the pure ideology (and I admit it's a perfectly fair ideology) from the practice. Capitalism as exercised by corrupt & imperfect humans, is always going to be problematic. So really, my argument is that you're wrong to single out for vitriol the damaged implementation of a good idea (democracy) in favour of a good idea (capitalism) whose implementation is equally damaged.

An unrelated note - this whole thing about banks not opening on sundays as an example of some restriction of our personal freedoms - the law regarding trading hours (not to mention the merchandise you're allowed to sell - for example: liquor, aspirin) has consistently loosened over the years. Thirty years ago it wasn't worth leaving the house after friday 5pm; nothing would be open until monday morning. So that particular example doesn't really hold up, unless you want to complain that the law isn't changing fast enough.

And I do have issues with capitalism, but possibly not what you'd expect. The first issue is demonstrated by your argument, but perhaps it's a wee bit too hippy & airy-fairy for those smart thoughtful mainstream types - that the concept of ownership, as ingrained as it is, seems to encourage a sense of entitlement. People believe that they deserve what they earn and they're entitled to anything that they can afford to pay for. We gripe about our taxes & rates & high house prices - daylight robbery, complain about the amount of work we have to do for our too-low wages - daylight robbery. We make ourselves obese by expanding our own selves to include not just our bodies, but our clothes, possessions, trips abroad, houses, countries. Any indication that we're not getting or keeping what we think we're owed, then someone is stealing from us, and because all this stuff is an extension of ourselves, then that theft is just as bad as someone stabbing a knife in our backs. Possibly democracy in practice aggravates that, since it offers a similar sense of entitlement to administer activities that don't directly affect us. Perhaps it's not such a bad thing (except for those of us who seek higher spiritual goals that require greater detachment from our physical selves), but people's concept of responsibility for their spending habits also seems to extend only as far as economic concerns - ecological and social responsibility are more difficult to argue.

The other issue I have is that it is a system that is so ingrained in our psyche that most people can't possibly comprehend any alternative. The decisions we make daily are determined by a fabricated system of ownership, but people do not see it as such, but as a basic axiom of our existence. I'm not calling for the overthrow of capitalist economics, but I think it would be extremely healthy and valuable if more people were encouraged to think outside the box. I'm fascinated by the burgeoning open-source community because this is an example of a movement away from ownership as a basic axiom; and it's very encouraging to me that it's being championed by people that are very successful under a capitalist system - those with far less reason to diverge from the status quo.

i think this first line;

// I didn't read much of that because it was long and got very murky, so I'll just address the first part.

is indicative of a kind of willful mindless ignorance

once again to be super clear.

@capitalism could be better administered in new zealand. to enable better opportunities for those with little, to aquire more.@

i am not splitting ideology from practise.
not at all, that's why reading would be cool if you would, so that some more serious dialogue could eventuate. i'm pointing out once again:

that capitalism could be administered better. not based on ideological assertions but based on the best practises maintained by more 'onto it' nations. looking around finding where capitalism is working better and adopting similar practises. that's pragmiatism. assessing things on a problem/solution basis, as you do in your job.

everything is exercised by corrupt & imperfect humans.
it's a reality.
no vitriol,
corruption works great in capitalism,
one type of corrouption works better than another
i'm not attacking democracy,
i don't think the implementation of democracy is at fault at all,
in new zealand.

i think the policies the government officials are making are not progressive enough for the 21st century.
as i said in the penultimate paragraph of my last post:

" nothing against democracy, it works as well as any other system, if it is effectively managed"

i'm simply highlighting the fact that the democratic nations are disadvantaged due to lack of singular vision.
i'm implying that !!!some considered compensation should be made in the implementation of policies!!
if you can imagine a system where there is no opposition to the implementation of any policy,
then you can imagine the new zealand government X10 speed.
consider new zealand is world famous for progressive policies like giving women the vote,
but now it pisses around mulling over a given like homosexual marriage
because other countries are more progressive in thsi respect, people are gonna go offshore to get married, that's a loss id national capital
but i really do think democracy is very fair in new zealand.
the fairness of ballots,
nzers votes still count.
democracy has been well implemented.
but some policies have not been as progressive as they could be

if i had been alive Thirty years ago, when it got to 5pm, i would have gone to the pub and watched some music. then i would have gone and had a session somewhere. without fear of tazers.

i guess you thought i might have said i'd go to play rugby, but i'm not arguing that new zealand hasn't been progressive in it's policies, just that as i said before you can't wrest on laurels with a satisfied grin, lie back on your deck chair and whisper to the grass:

"we got rid of 6pm closing in '67"

it's 2006. it's a competition, the tortoise beat the hare.

i always liked this norml quote from around that time o gauge the climate:

// In January 1978, the New Zealand Marijuana Party staged a smoke-in ... on Parliament steps, but again there were no arrests. "My men never detected anything" a police inspector said.

& i have also always enjoyed listening to my mates more recent stories about living in reefton, and the lack of police. how he'd go underage to the pub and everyone would know. then word would come that the police officer was doing his rounds and the youff would disappear till he left.
none of that rat on your neighbour bullshit
no national identity cards

just a cool attitude
what happened to the cool attitude?
whats with all the paranoia?
attitude goes a long way.
where attituded could previously get you arrestd, now it can get you tazered.

ownership is here to stay, u can't change the system, everyone uses the system,
getting it to work best for us is the trick imho,
making the economy more fluid

ownership & capitalism, are millenium apart in terms of development
if a country goes bankrupt it doesn't close down
if you got a problem with ownership maybe you should volunteer to go clean up dog stool.
are dogs entitled to shit on the council's street?
not technically.
and..
people do deserve anything they earn because they have actively participated enough to negotiate it.why try and guilt trip anyone- have a plan, make it work. be freed from as much restriction as possible.

//daylight robbery, complain about the amount of work we have to do for our too-low wages - daylight robbery. //

the wages are not too low, they are reasonable. the prices are too high. so the pace of transactions is too slow.

//We make ourselves obese by expanding our own selves to include not just our bodies, but our clothes, possessions, trips abroad, houses, countries. Any indication that we're not getting or keeping what we think we're owed, then someone is stealing from us,//

i don't understand this;

'and because all this stuff is an extension of ourselves, then that theft is just as bad as someone stabbing a knife in our backs.//

you mean when someone steals from us?
that it should feel like a knife stabbing?

"Possibly democracy in practice aggravates that, since it offers a similar sense of entitlement to administer activities that don't directly affect us."

yes i strongly agree with this point

" Perhaps it's not such a bad thing (except for those of us who seek higher spiritual goals that require greater detachment from our physical selves),"

i'll take your word for it

//but people's concept of responsibility for their spending habits also seems to extend only as far as economic concerns - ecological and social responsibility are more difficult to argue.//

i can think of very few new zealanders who spending habits extend only as far as economic concerns. people have hobbies and causes, new zealanders are verry generous with all kinds of charities

i agree it's hard for people to comprehend an alternative
but where you say
// The decisions we make ..are determined by a fabricated system of ownership, .. people ....see it as ... a basic axiom of our existence.//

it is an axiom.
that's what the NRA's for
that's why they invented guns in the first place.
just cos something is fabricated, doesn't make it any less real.

//I'm not calling for the overthrow of capitalist economics, //

it'd be a big ask
i agre the open-source community is a great example of a movement away from individual ownership as a basic axiom. but you could not argue that there is anything unowned.
it's is progressive and as you say a product of success within (not under) a capitalist system

but i'm not clear on this:

// those with far less reason to diverge from the status quo//

i think successful capitalists have the most reason to diverge from the status quo,
because they can
and if nothing diverges from the status quo then the statues quo is left stagnant.
there are too many examples of successful capitalists diverging from the status quo these days
and there should, despite my murky writing, be more...

[ http:// brangelina.com ]

like heather said: " I think it would be extremely healthy and valuable if more people were encouraged to think outside the box"

but some more examples- cos they put things a little more clearly
i'm happy to pay 20c a box for cigarettes and pay higher health insurance premiums
i'm happy not to pay GST
i'm happy about people making profit off roadside barbecues
i'm happy about eating at them
happy about my haircut in a park gazing over a boat filled lake
pretty fucking satisfied about the fact that guys who fix bikes do there business on street corners
strikingly innovative
and happy for the government to overlook pirated media, when the only reason legislation exists is to protect a 3000% mark up dictated by three major labels who give their artists fuck all of the profit.
and i am, and ok, i'll admit it just this one time, pretty manic depressive about the fact that australia has a better economy than new zealand.

if you think anyones going to bother to read those last 4 or so posts rope, your crazy. What are you saying, aren't you a lefty?, didn't you stand up for chinese style communism? why are you so inconsistent and what is- it you actually believe (ie. want). Wait, no dont answer, obviousely on drugs.

nah, rdor, i have no illusions about anyone reading those last 4 posts, although i was hoping to heather would. cos she made a arguments over points i didn't make.... and i thought it best to make sure all my cards were on the table to ensure there could be no more of this paranoid interpretation as to why i'm making some criticsims of nz gov policy

but to paraphrase, i am pointing out some some suggestions drawn from chinese style capitalism,
which can be implemented without being communist.

and pointing out some policies (or more accurately lack of) that are contributing to their 9% annual economic growth, and which if adopted could accelerate new zealand economic acceleration
and which are pretty cool for the quality of people's lives.

on drugs-most of the time, who isn't?
i am fully addicted to the nicotine in (western staple)potatoes/ tomatoes
fully into the psychoactive use of bread (particularly the stuff with poppy seeds)
etc etc. . .
i don't think there's any question that basically the whole fucking world is 'on drugs'
administered 3 times daily

even you rdor, assuming this is accurate:

//Book Fungus Can Get You High//

[ external link ]

How is chinese communist capitalism treating intellectual property these days?

as i posted on the apra thread lst week, they've just introduced licencing fee collection in kareoke bars. easy to police establish licenced businesses.
with regard to the piracy of dvds, software, cds i find it fascinating.

basically it's a sign of status to be able to afford 'the real thing' so as the middle class grows, so does the number of people buying legitimate goods, without proactively restricting people's right to chose the pirated often inferior goods. basically everyone gets to watch the movie.

which is cool, showed bad taste to a friend the other night amd he laughed right through it, and i think it's cool to be able to share our culture in this way, despite the fact that P.J missed out on the profit,, he earned a new fan-something that bodes well for a long term career).

one thing i had a hard time getting my head around, for a long time, is that despite the fact that there is a microsoft office buiding just near where i work and an obvious precence in the city, you can still buy 2$ of windows in the same building as a legitimate version,(no not in the microsoft building) same with alot of those companies...these big companies like warners etc realise that developing fan bases and consumer habits means they can allow the chinese market to undercut the prices they sell to the west for by 1000s% because they're not technically losing any money having their products pirated for people who couldn't afford their products in the first place.

more interesting and relevant to new zealand i think is the fact that despite laws against piracy, the government realises that keeping money flowing by allowing people to manufacturer, print and sell this kind of thing is beneficial for economic growth, it employs people and enables things to continue functioning without any kind of notable welfare system. (focus on employment and transactions) and obviously foreign investment and innovation.

just cos you have a law doesn't mean it has to be enforced to the letter, especially when resources taken up enforcing that law could be better spent on other more serious shit. . ., and especially if non-enforcement of that law is going to improve the quality of life for the nation's people.

cos the government is fully aware that:
1 these large companies can't police the market themselves
2. these companies inevitably need the market and will not make sanctions against the market if they're still selling legitimate products, or if there is still potential for development of that market
3. just cos there is a law against something doesn't mean you actually have to waste resources, following that law to the letter fulltime (wink), especially taking into account the fact that

a. people who buy legit products get better quality and after sales service

b. the market for this piracy is driven primarily by the criminal prices alot of these major companies charge for the product.

and in some cases i have no evidence of this , but i suspect, some of the more savvy multinational media companies have realised that they'll make more profit if they undercut themselves and (unofficially) allow some of their products to be pirated (without all the bells and whistles) for percentage deals with piracy companies.

which essentially means they're ripping off the west more than they're'd care to admit.
but that's an assumption.

its a case of the government interpreting capitalism in a way which places consumer freedom above the rights of business.

and the main difference in the thrust of this pro-consumerism between china and new zealand is that, the government sees that:

if you buy a product with a problem, then it's better for the economy if the consumer can just afford to buy another one or take it elsewhere to get repaired by an uuauthorized technician than to convolute the entire market with impediments like a blanket consumer rights act. which inhibit individuals rights to do business.

cos people can benefit from- and i personally am stoked to have the fredom to, buy headphones for 50c from a roadside stall (conveniently located) knowing that they might not last forever, and replace them - or even better - buy 5 sets at once for $2.00 (after a little haggling)

while smultaneously having the freedom to go the extra distance to pay international (roughly ; ) prices for the real deal from a reputable dealer with warranty.

more choice has never ben a bad thing.
and i should apologize in that alot of this is draws from an experience when i was about 10 where me and my sister set up a roadside stall (specializing in buttons and rocks) on parnell street, masterton and some old biddy came along and told us to take our business elsewhere because what we were doing is illegal...

for what good reason?
pirated dvd prices have recently dropped from 6-5yuan $1,
interestingly, a pirated CD will be $2.

//i don't understand why i'm the only one on this thread saying anything fascist, can't you at least try?

You know who had some really good, really sound ideas?
The Nazis.

//who voted them in?

The same people who kept voting for Zayra, I reckon. They liked the outfits and the insanity.

well in germany everything is shut on a sunday, and during the week, lots of banks shut for a few hours in the middle of the day for lunch. same goes for post offices.

also i transferred money once and it took 9 fucking days to get from my german bank account into another german bank account. wtf. first and last time i ever did that. i know its not relevant but WTF.

the triumph of democracy

[ external link ]

his arguments are so weak i'm not even convinced it's actually limegreen
capitalism is focused on the acquistion of capital, something the new zealand gov seems to have overlooked in giving this 12,000,000 loan.

the ten commandments- part of islam/christianity/judaism- check it. the sabbath not day specific but an inherent part of your life limegreen and whether you're aware of it or not, this is a religious tradition.

i don't even know what he's talking about minimum wage worker. since when do priests earn minimum wage? or sportstars or radio tv personalities, since when are these things essential.

it's just not worth replying , to sloppy attempts like that as a rebuttal

//the sabbath not day specific but an inherent part of your life limegreen and whether you're aware of it or not, this is a religious tradition.

Sabbath fine. I'm hardly one to miss realising I've inherited a Judaeo-christian heritiage. But why Saturday as well? Why not all night, 24 hours a day?

The 12,000,000 loan. I don't quite get where that comes in. Do they work Sundays? Saturdays? Or is that up there with me saying frisbies, because that's about as connected as it seems at the moment...

And as for priests, newscasters, we're still talking about a trivial percentage of the population. When I was working for close to the minimum wage, I worked evenings and weekends. Now that I don't, I have the economic power to pull a job with more reasonable hours and the ability to accrue capital. There is always going to be someone who is prepared to work at odd times for a certain amount of money. One of my friends (female) once enquired of a topless waitress what the rate was. We all agreed that $25/hr was not worth it hour opinion, but that was obviously enough to sway those lasses. Same with people who work christmas day. Either you're under threat of being fired from your job for not pulling your rostered shift, you don't care about christmas, or the pay overcomes your care about christmas.
And as for banks. Man, they are the capitalists. They have your money. They have your capital. They get to make the rules. (Aint internet banking grand, but it still takes forever for certain things to be processed).

BASICALLY I THINK YOU'LL FIND THAT it is (excuse caps) the governments who make the rules. for the banks. to even be able to open their doors. capitalism/weekends. having to take time off work, losing potential income to make an investment is ultimately loss of income. it's defeatist. income is capital. capital is the point that's been lost somewhere along the sheep trails.

as invaders and usurpers of a culture, a better job could be done.

as quaint as a bank is , the reason u go is to keep people employed,

capitalism

under the table work

capitalist

laws to prevent people doing business on the street

capitalism?

homeownership decline

slum lord styles

Kapitalism and Kolonial imperialism.

...actually, looking over this whole thread again, perhaps a more pertinent question is

"please can you explain what //12,000,000 loan// refers to & offer a link; rather than assuming that we all know what the hell you're talking about, and that by disagreeing with unrelated arguments, that we're implicitly supporting Evil(tm)".

//how long can u linger round a music website limey without making a single informed music related post?

It seems about as long as you.
I can go a couple of weeks at a time without a music-related post. I'm not sure if my posts meet your criteria of 'informed'. I voluntarily ceased attempting to make music a decade a go, because it wasn't giving me any pleasure (it was pretty bad), so my 'practical' experience is pretty low these days. I still get plenty of vicarious musical pleasure. I was tied up with work so missed the Chills and the Puddle this week, which is a little embittering. Had a great night at the dux a couple of weeks back with Voom et al...
Just because I lurk on the music stuff doesn't mean I don't read it.

Me

dunno. what happened to the stingray?