//I suppose that given our lower population

there are a number of countries such as jamaica, sweden, which could be used as examples to question that logic.

how about if NZONAIR started up an OFFSHOOT funding round for exemplarily original and really "out there" experiemental (tho still potentially catchy and accessible music)

a kind of wildcard funding proposal

i reckon the work that'd be submitted to this would be actually very interesting

// and James, stop standing up for something that deep down you know is a lie!
// you're not on the PAYROLE yet... :) are you?

heh. no.

And, as I've pointed out on previous threads, I'd be all for some sort of review of the NZOA funding process, taking on some of the randomness of the Creative NZ funding system perhaps. ;-)

I just think people unfairly criticise NZOA for not doing things that aren't their responsibility, or for acting in a way that is pretty much to the letter of their actual mandate.

And I was really just wanting to correct Johovishta's impressions on NZ On Air's lack of inactivity with regards to the international stuff. As I said, it's not NZ On Air's area of concern (and shouldn't be - no point in doubling up on the NZMIC's effort).

What are your thoughts on the NZMIC, by the way Trillion? Reckon they're taking a better approach to helping out NZ artists than NZOA?

// thing is, they write that mandate - and could easily change it.

I agree.

// it's true that without any support bands will just fade away
// because it becomes too hard to keep going.

ahhh, come on. If a band wants to keep going, they'll keep going. Any band who tells you they can't continue performing and recording because they didn't get any NZOA funding is a joke. 15 years ago NZOA didn't even exist - did that stop bands from playing and recording? The NZ country and jazz scenes are still strong, despite a total lack of NZOA support.

// A music video is essential for making or breaking a band/artist.
// If there is no music video then there are no album sales.

Well, for starters, given today's technology, it's not hard to make a music video, even without the NZOA grant. Secondly, how many bands in NZ really make any money from record sales, with or without video promotion, let alone enough to survive on?

// NZ on Air is the first port of call for making it within
// nz music industry. I see NZMIC as the last stop.

NZMIC's helped out plenty of relatively low-profile bands (certainly bands that don't fall into the 'commercially viable' NZOA system): die! die! die!, the brunettes, the coolies, ruby suns, the have, jakob, the mint chicks. Again, they're there to help bands get ahead overseas. No-one outside the top half dozen or so artists in NZ are making their living from recorded music. The real money is offshore, which is where the NZMIC come in.

You should get yourself over to SXSW next year, Trillion - take those deserving homegrown sounds to a market that might appreciate them.

i completly agree with Noizy, if not getting funding makes you want to give music then something is wrong with the reasons your making music in the first place.

I also agree with Trillion that money can made from selling 1500 albums a year... but you need to be spending very very little money. There ironies on all sides of this argument. the first phoenix album sold maybe 3000 copies in its first year with practicly zero advertising (as far as i know, i may wrong) and zero comercial radio play. We did however have a few decent videos, which we paid for ourselves (through the record company, thankyou Brent and Jason). So obviously videos can help but i am strongly of the belief that touring and having a really good live presence is what drives NZ music. Fat Freddies and Trinity Roots are perfect examples of that.

I am really thankfull when i get NZONAIR funding, but i have to admit being extremely pissed off after being turned down maybe 10 times in a row. I am sure Trillion has made many many many atempts to get funding and its disheartening to say the least when your trying to promote something as fantastic as say John White when it is so blatantly uncomercial yet so catchy and stunning to those who give it a chance.

blah blah blah

// The Datsuns (belatedly, admittedly)", which
// is being kind to nzoa, where it could be argued
// that they almost completely missed the boat on that one

True enough. Who'd have thought that garage rock was going to go as ballistic as it did, though, and that The Datsuns were going to be picked up by NME as an 'it' band? As I pointed out somewhere above, the whole music biz is a complete punt - if you could back winners even 50% of the time, you'd be a very very rich person.

// also i'm interested by no fat freddy's drop on your list

'Wandering Eye' got a NZOA video grant. First single off their first album? Can't complain too much about that.

// True enough. Who'd have thought that garage rock was going to go as ballistic as it did, though, and that The Datsuns were going to be picked up by NME as an 'it' band?

Nato?

and what sort of state would you be in if you did?

happy birthday NATO, 27-the big one.

I agree, i don't make music cos i want to be famous or get a video grant. i make music cos i love making music. and i want to do what i love. and that's why i still do it and that's why i will always do it.

but if i can't make a living from it then i have to start thinking about other avenues of income (or i'll starve and be living in a cardboard box - me in a few weeks) which may not be in a music field. thus, i am giving up actually spend a lot of time doing what I love. I know lots of people who this has happened to. the next step is starting a family, then all your time is taken up with either work or family, and about an hour a week is devoted to music. that is the type of 'give it up' that i am talknig about.

personally i would rather make music and starve than to get a shitty soul destroying job.

by the way - not sure if i've told you = but i like your stuff!

you don't seriously think they'd lower taxes if they canned nzoa do you? they're not technically funding artists, they're funding 'art' (used loosely). your argument is one the weakest i've ever seen (and that's against anything ever). u want to just be a lawyer? or a lawyer who earns money? why should they can it? and this goes to Johovishta too.

what is the problem?

as you said johovishta

//I must say that in its basic premise NZ on Air has been successful , that is it has got more NZ Music on radio/TV.... I have read all the NZ On Air self congratulatory statistics, airplay is up, the government is happy. Great.

that negates everything else you said.

at times i like to imagine i'm a gardener. and when i'm imagining i'm a gardner i imagine i'm a pretty fucking smashing gardener who should be in high demand.
there are parks in my town- funded by the state! with gardens! and to be honest i think the way the're pruning those trees is all wrong, the plant dispersement is wack and fuck it. they should be employing me as their fucking gardener because i'm a without doubt the most kick arse of all gardeners. but they're not- fucking stooges.

so they should fucking ban public parks, and gardens and all other feeble feeble feeble horticultural shit efforts and think about the kids ok.

don't get me started on public swimming pools, fuck beautification, fuck culture, burn the art galleries and the libraries and firebomb those sparks in the park digs cos people, we are not paying taxes to have a good time, we are paying taxes so that things can be efficiently privatised.
i want to see privatisation, let those skallywags up at the waspnest privatise themselves out of a job and then i'll be happy,
when there's no new zealand tv on the air
when there's no place to go and view art for free
when there's no place to hire out books cos fuck it! those libraries they are just faceless organizations, WHO DECIDES WHAT BOOKS THEY SHOULD BUY!!!!? tasteless wankers

// they need more hedge mazes in public parks

ne'er a truer word spoken.

// i'd support the canning of NZ On Air, because i don't
// believe taxpayers should have fund artists when it's hard
// enough for some to feed their own families.

so, RH, by that reasoning, you'd also be in favour of ditching the NZ Trade and Enterprise Department - which grants businesses about $65M each year (compared to NZOA's $5M music budget) as well as funding mentoring programs, business incubators and various other services? Shouldn't business be sorting this stuff out for itself?

Investment for the future, perhaps?

[ http://www.nzte.govt.nz/ ]

// they need more hedge mazes in public parks

They have an almost hedge maze in the Oamaru Botanic Gardens. Actually, it's really just probably 5-6 hedges slightly offset from each other, but it was cool when I was 7.

It does make me smile how damn determined RebelHeart is to get himself into debt.

But anyway, talking to a couple of mates of mine who are in a reasonably successful band, they remarked how much they had to compromise and "blandenise" their music to get their singles out there. NZOA basically tries to select commercially viable tracks, which they have to sell to our only real radio station, the edge. The edge only takes a few songs per category and those catergories are very non specific; any alternative (basically anything not RnB, Hiphop or pop) gets classed as pop rock. They also don't categorise NZ music either. This means bands like Goodnight Nurse are up against The White Stripes, Radiohead, All American Rejects, Arctic Monkey for example. But of course, the edge doesn't play much of that stuff so theres a pool of about 5 songs. So NZOA has to provide the most "radio-friendly" song they can so it might get played. Most of the songs you hear sound like a bland rip-off of another band's song ( a la 48May Vs Bowling for soup), stuffed full of hooks but polished so much its a big slippery piece of shite that slides by inoffensively.

I see a bit of a cycle here, big radio stations not playing the New Zealand song -> Only accept the stuff that sounds like the overseas stuff thats already playing on big radio station -> band compromises song to be inoffensive polished turd -> song sounds like a crap version of everything else -> no demand for nz song -> radio station not playing nz song...
A good example of a band who found the secret code to get funding and then a record deal is Goodnight Nurse, who have released exactly the song about 5 times in a row, who stole their ideas off 48 May anyway.

I guess I just wish that both NZOA and especially the big NZ stations would take bigger chances; why do they think they're allowed to play safe most of the time, when radio stations overseas fight each other to be the first to break "the next big thing", often getting it wrong? You don't make much $ by backing the favourite horse everytime

//so the phoenix foundation is anti national party? or just fat old white men?//

samuel (me) from TPF is most definatly anti national party....and i am not anti fat old white men.. iw ill be one soon enough. What I am againts is groups of fat old white men who think every other demographic is unimportant. The shit Labour get for having a few gay mp's is astonishing. Do they 10% gay MPs? No? then they have less than would represent a proportionant number of kiwis so national and there PC cop should go have hetrosexual man time in the pub and forget about every contributing to NZ politics ever again.

Ummm that was a bit off topic!

she'll be right records

[ external link ]

ANSWERS FOR ROPE - sorry had trouble getting onto this site yesterday

//1. you've just got to face the fact, you must have pissed off the
wrong people at the wrong time.//

possibly true. there's a saying 'those who speak the truth have few friends' . it also gets to a point where anything ones says or does isnt going to change peoples minds - so then it doesnt matter what I say as nothing will change. the only thing I can achieve by dissing NZon Air opening is to be a part of some sort of movement of like minded people (hopefully most of nz music scenes) to create some sort of debate which in turn creates a shift in policy. they day that shit american hit sound-a-like music like dawn raid, goodnight nurse (you create your list here) gets blacklisted, will be a good day for nz music. will it take for world war three before we chop off americas far reaching and destructive hand?

//2. you didn't capitalize well enough on the best opportunites
presented to you in the late 1990s//

probably true. when you are lead down the garden path it sometimes
takeS a while to find your way back. I also don't think I had the strength,
motivation or business savvy head to pull that off. you have to also understand
the climate at the time was very hard to exist musically alongside a completely different and fast growing style of hip hop. or perhaps i was different. the following I think i have now is basically grown out of my hard work and own perserverance (blood, sweat, tears). making moody kiwi emo rap with folk pop choruses hardly slots me nicely into a 'scene'.
lots of NZ acts (especially hip hop and roots/dub) have had great sucess almost immediately cos they've fitted into the cliche nicely.

3. you may actually be an encumbrance to the acts signed to your label
due to your staunchly aggressive approach to nzoa.

haha, yes. it would be an interesting test for another label to take
on one of the acts I have released just to see if they get an nz on
air grant. I do think it is rediculous if I am personally on a
blacklist. I am involved deeply in NZ music, and feel my contribution
(especially in nz accent hip hop) is important for, and relevant to NZ
and New Zealanders. another thing is, i will probably never stop
making, performing and releasing music. and there's no doubt I am
going to have genuine success sometime in the next few (or ten) years.
probably in australia (where they are a little more open minded.)
am I always going to be dissing nz on air? hope not...
surely they don't want to build up too many enemies over the next 20
years?

//have you or any othe acts you've been involved in ever reveived a
grant from nzoa?//

yes - 1998 shadows on a flat land = 2 video grants. 1999-2000 dark
tower - 3 video grants. these were given when we were signed/licensed to a major (universal). and happened when they had a slightly different approach and gave
grants to artists more evenly across the board. but in the later videos (baggy trousers) nz on air were getting interested in funding commercial projects, this could have also played a part in the demise of dark tower from your local airwaves. i.e. too commercial sounding to be cool.

//during the last 5 years are you able to calculate how many hours
you've spent fighting this war?//
too many hours. I could have spent that time washing cars for $6 an hour, and be a very rich man.

sorry - probably much longer answers than you wanted, you owe me $6......

// I have a feeling that sxsw is mostly hot air,
// too many bands for people to care much about.

it does seem to be going that way. as you point out, it's probably more for well-established up-and-coming bands now (ie. bands who already have some international buzz) than total no-profilers from New Zealand.

Still, in such a critical mass of music biz types, it can't hurt to be there. Networking is networking, regardless of how many bands you're 'competing' against, and how niche your audience is.

Yeah, thats what I said, just with more subtlety Mr. lloyd. As far as fat goes, you should see my winter blubber! I look like fucken James reid, after he ate fat ole mickey havoc and Frankie "Butter Bean" Stevens! Maybe I'll go on a diet and stick to a low fat diet... Brendan Smythes dick anyone?
xxx Lucy

[ http://www.myspace.com/stlucy ]

Yeah, it's not like he lives here. Hope Feelstyle didn't get any either.