thats wot im talkn about im down with G.O.D. So if your keen im stayn in auckland hope you are holar

//2) Probably a bit of a pro-rock bias, God knows I've got one.

This is correct. The nzmusic.com community's really indie-skewed, full of fucken scenesters in their smelly chuck taylors.

I have no idea whether this site can be helpful, but it exists, so that's a start:

[ http://www.hiphopnz.com/ ]

Yeah, that b-arch is mad hating on you, playa! Bitch, you best recognise and back the fuck up 'fore you get smacked tha fuck up. Reprazint!

Sounds good. I still feel bummed about one of my old bands missing out on a spot in our heat of the WBOTB's because these three guy brought in a cd and rapped to it.

Best of luck. Can you think of any examples of the kind of thing you want to do?

well kuz thats not me, like salmonala dub said and I Quote "we do for tha love of it"

...but..but..didn't they preach atheistic socialism in their songs? Didn't they tell kids to rebel against authority in their songs? Didn't they use the f word in their songs? Isn't their music secular rap-rock that does nothing to glorify God or ensure your salvation? I'm a little confused here.

hmmm, yeah.
not actually too sure if the hip hop community would say that RATM are hip hop.
you might have to check before using such terminology.

so therefore having a genuine will to help disadvantaged Mexicans is evil in your opinion, and being against the death penalty, ie. basically you're saying you're in a position to judge the members of that band and consider them to be evil

// so therefore having a genuine will to help disadvantaged Mexicans is evil in your opinion //

rebelheart, I can see nowhere where rdor makes that (insanely specific) assertion. In fact, it seems to me that all rdor is doing is pointing out what many christian leaders have preached over the years: rock'n'roll is the devil's work, corrupting the youth, etc...

// being against the death penalty //

your point being?

// basically you're saying you're in a position to judge the members of that band and consider them to be evil //

again, not rdor's assertion, but his (parodic) take on old-school religious propaganda.

as a (presumed) christian, how can you reconcile your love of god with your love of such a godless band?

rebelheart, I can see nowhere where rdor makes that (insanely specific) assertion. In fact, it seems to me that all rdor is doing is pointing out what many christian leaders have preached over the years: rock'n'roll is the devil's work, corrupting the youth, etc... your point being? again, not rdor's assertion, but his (parodic) take on old-school religious propaganda. as a (presumed) christian, how can you reconcile your love of god with your love of such a godless band?

> i'm saying those are some of the things RATM stands for, and rdor was saying they were sending "ungodly" messages. plus if you think you can't reconcile God's love with a "godless band" then you obviously don't know anything about Christianity

Either something glorifies God, or it glorifes man. Anyway, they preach socialist humanism, and as you are a loyal act supporter I am shocked that you would listen to such stuff.

> i don't have to support what they "glorify" to enjoy the style of music they play, man you're a smarmy prick

Point being NOBODY GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT CHRISTIANITY so please cease and desist.

Where did this RebelHeart come from?
He's sure is somthin.

rebelheart, it really warms the cockles to see that you've FINALLY gotten the hang of that bastion of internet debate, the ad hominem.

> actually i chose the word smarmy 'cos it describes what rdor is doing - deliberately misrepresenting Christianity in order to make it look bad, especially in a discussion board where most people don't know much about Christianity and get their information second-hand

As for the band, I'm surprised you haven't gone through the "burn the secular CD collection" phase yet. I went through it, all my friends went through it.. It's generally accepted in many, many modern denominations that non-christian music ought to be avoided; especially bands that promote the indulgence of negative emotions like anger or depression.

> far out, you guys are all making RATM seem like some psycho Satanic band - although they do promote anger the purpose of it is to get a just result - like "righteous" anger, it's for a cause. plus just 'cos you and many Christians you knew went through some phase doesn't make it the way God sees it - for example 1 billion Catholics in the world believe the Pope is the Christian leader that doesn't necessarily make it right. and i don't see anything wrong with indulging in depression - it helps in learning about what's good and what to appreciate, and the Bible talks a lot about suffering and how it's a part of being a Christian

A misrepresentation of the adage "love the sinner and hate the sin". Showing godly love for sinners is a long way from endorsing the expression of that sin, which, arguably, is what you're doing by listening to RATM.

> well that's just a stupid argument that links things completely unrelated, i don't know what you listen to, but arguably if you find Hillsongs' songs catchy as you said in a previous post that means you are endorsing the expression of that love for God, or if someone listens to classical music and enjoys it they're endorsing the expression of many composers' deep religious views. it's just a stupid argument that doesn't even make sense - you can enjoy music without supporting the message. or for example i could like the Maori Party's MPs (of the ones i've met) but not support their stance on racial issues

Actually, I don't have any problem with christians enjoying non-christian music; but in this particular instance, fobbing off rdor 'not knowing anything about christianity' is patently wrong. Sure, he only ever dwells on the negative traits of various subsets of christians, but he really knows those traits inside-out. Pretty much every view he's attributed to christianity, I've heard a great number of christians subscribe to it.

> the majority rules argument aye

Point being NOBODY GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT CHRISTIANITY so please cease and desist.

> as usual, i'm not the one who brings it up and the debate's happening because you non-Christians are so eager to find fault in Christianity that you have to take every opportunity to attack it

You cannot love God AND love the world or anything in it. There is no compromise... the whole premise of Christianity allows for no compromise, the world, the flesh, man on his own, are capable of nothing but vanity.... that's why jesuscrux listening to a secular rock band is such a contradiction...EVERYTHING has to relate back to God in some way.

> it's not a contradiction because God created everything in the world. there were people in the Bible who shared your views called Pharisees who believed that because Samaritans were not in the temples they were therefore not godly, and these days there are people called the Exclusive Bretheren who argue the same arguments as you, pathetic

how about youse stop attacking Christianity at every opportunity and trying to prove me wrong even though i'm not even trying to prove anyone i'm right? i don't need to tell youse the good Christian things i do, i don't actually care if youse think a few posts on a message board covers everything someone does in a day

rebelheart, I wasn't trying to prove your beliefs are wrong. Regardless of how ridiculous you think the beliefs of my friends or me in the days when I was a staunch pentecostal christian, or any christian's beliefs are, this doesn't change the fact that they are widespread throughout the happy-clappies - and if you can't depend on a full-o-faith born-again christian to believe christianity, then who on earth can you depend on?

I have no idea what's right or wrong in the faith any more; especially since so many multitudes of christians vehemently disagree on the theory and application of "true" christianity. But I pulled you up because, despite your overinflated faith in your own opinions, rdor seems to know a whole lot more about christians than you do. If you're going to tell anyone that they don't know shit about christianity, then you'd better go find the churches that are teaching it, berate them.

your share the same convictions as the "pharisees" ie if you don't love God - you go to hell, you don't know Jesus - you go to hell, generally if you're a non-Christian - you go to hell. Virtual every seriouse (nonCatholic) believer thinks that all non-christians go to hell. But you've sugar coated it cause you don't like other people (non believers) summising Christian beliefs.

> people go to Hell because they reject God, not because God rejects them. as CS Lewis says, the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. plus i don't know where people go after they die, because i haven't seen where they go. and i have no idea what you're talking about, where have i ever "sugar-coated" my beliefs - what i don't like is smarmy people like you who have nothing better to do than to attack people and misrepresent their faith by creating prejudice and stereotypes

The idea that God made everything therefore everything is ok doesn't hold up - it only makes sense if your talking about a flower or a tree - but the Bible has a lot to say about the "imaginings of the human heart" etc. Of course you're free to make your own interpretation. But the kind of emotions encouraged by rock music are the kind discouraged by Christianity - agrression, anger, self-aggrandizement. The antithesis of ascetic theology. And it;s funny that on one hand you say you only enjoy listening to this band because of the music (which culd be argued is sinful in itself) and don't agree with the message, but on the other say that the message is ok and justifies the music.

> i'm saying i can see they are genuine in wanting to fight for their cause, but i don't agree with their left-wing ideals because i think capitalism is a better way to solve poverty, and that i think the guitar riffs are very well played. i wish you'd stop talking crap and painting some picture of Christianity in order to make it look stupid

rebelheart, I wasn't trying to prove your beliefs are wrong. Regardless of how ridiculous you think the beliefs of my friends or me in the days when I was a staunch pentecostal christian, or any christian's beliefs are, this doesn't change the fact that they are widespread throughout the happy-clappies - and if you can't depend on a full-o-faith born-again christian to believe christianity, then who on earth can you depend on?

> well the most important person to depend on is yourself and if you have a relationship with Him, God. depending on others is helpful but you should look to it as being helpful in helping you decide rather than authoritative, that's my opinion at the same time you gotta humble yourself too

I have no idea what's right or wrong in the faith any more; especially since so many multitudes of christians vehemently disagree on the theory and application of "true" christianity. But I pulled you up because, despite your overinflated faith in your own opinions, rdor seems to know a whole lot more about christians than you do. If you're going to tell anyone that they don't know shit about christianity, then you'd better go find the churches that are teaching it, berate them.

> well i don't know what Churches you used to go to, the ones i've been to are pretty mature and rdor's opinions appear to me like opinions non-Christians that have never read a single chapter of the Bible have about Christians, and so nobody goes well you think you know everything well that's the kind of person i was when i was 15 and i'd probably still be like that if i hadn't met a friend and started listening to Radio Rhema

//meh, fukkit, I just felt like an argument. Also, rdor deserves some kind of kudos for keeping these boards in some semblance of semi-consciousness//

its only cause I'm in the most boring job in the world, working around unbearsbly goody-good dweebs, and there is nothing else to do in the breaks.

hell is an invention to scare people into christianity.

hell is an invention to scare children.

the modern church is an invention to get money of poor people

bullshit, jesus directly refered to hell.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

The nature of Hell is described in the New Testament on several occasions. For example, in Matthew 3:10-12, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29-30, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:41-46, Luke 3:9, Luke 12:5, Luke 13:28, Luke 16:19-28, and Revelation 12:9, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 21:8; in the Book of Revelation Hell is also mentioned as the "abyss" and "the Earth". Jesus himself describes Hell as a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth"; this quotation has frequent appearance in the New Testament.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/hell ]

"Awesome"

Ze Frank has given me new appreciation for nuances available for that particular word.

[ external link ]

Hell is mentioned over 300 times in the Bible, and Jesus mentions it more than any other person in the Bible - yes i did hear that from a "wealthy" Christian (Billy Graham's book about the four horsemen) but i don't doubt it 'cos if i was to make an estimate based on my memory of reading the Bible i would've said about 50 times in the New Testament

believe it to be whatever you want, whether it's something to scare people into believing God, or whatever, but someone could tell you you'll dehydrate and suffer and die in two days if you go without water and there's a well available and you can say it's just something they're telling you to scare you into believing in them, just as you're saying Jesus saying if you accept Him into your life will save you from death after death and instead give you life after death or you'll die and go to Hell is scaring you

well i suggest you not put God in a box, and stop judging Christianity by whatever suits your argument, you're pretty much arguing along the lines of "Graham Capill was a Christian therefore Christianity allows paedophilia". if you look at the context of the Bible, Jesus was preaching to people who knew God, for example whenever he condemned people to Hell He was talking to Pharisees, who believed they were righteous in the eyes of the Law. and whenever He warned people of Hell, it was after He gave them a message, for example the adulteress, He said He forgave her, but she had to go and sin no more, or for example when He told the rich man to sell all his possessions and follow Him, otherwise it would be harder for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for him to go to Heaven. so therefore if you are conscious of Jesus and capable of making a decision you have to be responsible

as for people who don't know God and aren't given a choice, if you look at Lazarus he suffered outside a rich man's door and it doesn't say whether or not he knew God, but he probably didn't as he was suffering each day without enough to eat so how can he have the energy to praise God?

don't put God into a box, do you really think He'd be so stupid to not have taken into account those people born in third world countries, why not humble yourself and admit God knows better than you, and don't judge Christianity by its people, Jesus said "follow Me" not "follow my people", 'cos people are never perfect - that's why we have to accept that we don't always know the reasons behind everything, so instead of instantly assuming because there's something you can't get your head around the whole religion is therefore wrong, trust that it's 'cos you don't understand it, and if God is just and righteous He's not stupid