Although I probably stumbled over this ungracefully when trying to state my case against JC's religious arguments, I really like the fact that NZM is more an online meeting place for musicians and music lovers to discuss EVERYTHING than just a music discussion forum. I think all subjects should be up for debate - but if you're going to open a can of worms, be prepared to get an alternating view to your own.
My issue is that JC has kind of worn out his welcome on the "I'm a christian and I play christian music and the music I like is this christian artist and here's some christian lyrics I think really tell us about god's love for all us christians" tip, not to mention the infamous right wing bands thread.
It will be a sad day when NZM is just for talking about music and nothing else.
Nah I don't think the issue is about keeping it narrowly focussed on music, more that faith-based discussions are not far away from other forum killer issues that are banned in forums like this one. Some topics are so inflammatory and naturally dominating that they are discouraged for the sake of the overall community.
I guess the trick is to be careful when they start to dominate discussions...
so white rhino basically you have something against someone being themselves for too long, for example if someone's music was about, say rap music about being a gangsta they wouldn't be able to keep talking about it. looking at all my topics i've made, besides the classified ones where i am looking for other Christian musicians, i am pretty sure i've never posted the same topic twice
//looking at all my topics i've made, besides the classified ones where i am looking for other Christian musicians, i am pretty sure i've never posted the same topic twice
You have, however, posted a very large number of topics (not including classifieds) compared to most other members. You've started 59 topics (- x number of classified topics) for 233 posts (so about 4 posts to every topic you've made). In contrast, Heather has made 78 posts per topic she's started. Blink, despite doing a lot of tour advertising topics, still rouns out 40 posts per topic started. I'm not saying that you shouldn't start topics, but that if you start a lot of topics, then you run the risk of dominating the topics being discussed.
I'm not a religious bloke, and I don't particually like the fact that religion for the most part has / is the root of pretty much all evil in this world .. Northern Ireland, Iraq, Israel, and numerous other place's through out the globe .. and yes I know there are sometimes other factors also ( oil for instance ) but for the most part it's in the name of a god of some sort .. musliums, Christains, jews, cathloics, various factions of these groups .. all seem to think they have the answers .. answers to what .. ?? I tend to lean towards science .. maybe even space .. :-) but all that said I live in a democracy and I welcome freedom of speach and expression so long as no harm is ment .. maybe tone it down alittle J.C. but don't stop.
the same could be argued the other way - that non-religion is the reason for wars, eg. all the wars in history from non-religious countries. it just happens to be that most people believed in a God in the old days and that was when the wars were - that doesn't mean religion is the cause, they want things that most religions preach against, such as greed and power. it's like saying the New Zealand wars were caused by non-religion when the Maori tribes fought against each other
thou shalt not kill is a commandment, therefore invalidates all the arguments about how they kill others in the name of God and therefore God is the cause
as i mentioned in one of my other posts, it's like saying that there is the criminal law in NZ, which says you cannot kill someone else. and if someone goes on a big rampage and kills a lot of people, does that mean the criminal law is wrong? no it doesn't
and as for toning it down... well i don't know how much lower i am meant to tone it down if people keep attacking my toned down statements and starting the arguments, which requires rebuttal. take for example and see which party needs to tone things down?
//thou shalt not kill is a commandment, therefore invalidates all the arguments about how they kill others in the name of God and therefore God is the cause
Actually, the original Hebrew for "thou shalt not kill" used the word to describe murder as distinct from killing someone during a war. Hence all those Jehovah-endorsed wars that happened after the ten commandments were received, including Joshua's battle at Gibeon where God kept the sun in the sky for a full 24 hours so that the Israelites would win, and the battle featuring David killing Goliath.
in the name of Allah isn't used by religious factions of the islamic community when they blow themselves and others up with bombs, isn't that in the name of a god ? didn't ancient cultures or primitive tribes appease their gods with blood, either by sacrifice or wars ? Chritanity didn't get to where it is today without blood being shed. I think people killed through out time in the name of a god of some sort far out weigh any other reason for the mass death's of humans over the millenia .. is George bush not a Christian are his ideas on how iraq should be run and governed based on his Christian ideals and values ? some may not want this to happen in their musilum country .. as I'm sure a number of Americans wouldn't want it to happen in theirs, it's going to cause conflict .. okay the oil is the main reason for the war we all know that .. but there's another war going on too I feel... who know's maybe I'm wrong on every front .. as I said I'm not religious so am talking out of a hole in my head on this for the most part.
Well, under the The Bar heading on the Forums top page, NZM does say, " Hell, it's a bar - do what you like, but if it gets messy watch for bouncers!"...
In your case JC I think your religion is a measure of your own issues and hang ups. Says to me you are/ possibly were not the most popular guy before some born agains hijacked you for an evening. I don't know your back story dude but you seem typical of a number of lonely foreign students I've worked with in the past. Also suggests you have a side to you that maybe you don't want to acknowledge, take from that what you will.
You do get that some people are actually happy without having religion in their lives JC? I think all of us need something in our lives to bring us happiness and confort, primary narcisism I think they call it, whether it is a loved one, acceptance, money, status, music, belongings, religion, a purpose... whatever- (and usually a combination of many of the above) you seem very blinkered at times to that, is that because you see anything not fitting into a christian framework as satanic? You know that to denounce anything as such says more about your primary responces to it than properties of said practices......
If we want to talk religion lets ask the question JC, as I am presuming you weren't brought up christian, what led you towards it?
What do you consider evil? and what have you got to atone for JC?
All too often religion becomes a measure of sorrow, those unhappiest jump in the most wholeheartedly. Question JC are you so much better off for wearing a crucifix? or is there a root issue still undealt with? what are you hiding?
Wanna talk religion? you cannot tell others why it might be a good thing for others before you understand you.
So come on who is Jesus Crux and how do you find yourself the fanatic you are today? See if you can take a crack at this leaving your dogma at the door
> In your case JC I think your religion is a measure of your own issues and hang ups. Says to me you are/ possibly were not the most popular guy before some born agains hijacked you for an evening. I don't know your back story dude but you seem typical of a number of lonely foreign students I've worked with in the past. Also suggests you have a side to you that maybe you don't want to acknowledge, take from that what you will.
whatever that means, first of all i'm not a foreign student, also i don't know where you get the idea there's a side of me i don't want to acknowledge
> You do get that some people are actually happy without having religion in their lives JC? I think all of us need something in our lives to bring us happiness and confort, primary narcisism I think they call it, whether it is a loved one, acceptance, money, status, music, belongings, religion, a purpose... whatever- (and usually a combination of many of the above) you seem very blinkered at times to that, is that because you see anything not fitting into a christian framework as satanic? You know that to denounce anything as such says more about your primary responces to it than properties of said practices......
well you're talking from a very typical non-Christian viewpoint, that people become Christians in order to "live happier lives". in fact most of the Bible talks about how you have to go through suffering as a Christian, and people who become Christians for the purpose of getting joy, well in most cases they will be disappointed. Christianity to me is about following God, not because it will bring me benefits (even though it will, as well as detriments), but because it's the "right" thing to do. you can be a Christian and very happy or a Christian and very depressed, as well as being a non-Christian and very happy and non-Christian and very depressed. and where have i denounced anything non-Christian as Satanic?
> If we want to talk religion lets ask the question JC, as I am presuming you weren't brought up christian, what led you towards it?
What do you consider evil? and what have you got to atone for JC?
All too often religion becomes a measure of sorrow, those unhappiest jump in the most wholeheartedly. Question JC are you so much better off for wearing a crucifix? or is there a root issue still undealt with? what are you hiding?
Wanna talk religion? you cannot tell others why it might be a good thing for others before you understand you.
So come on who is Jesus Crux and how do you find yourself the fanatic you are today? See if you can take a crack at this leaving your dogma at the door
i have no idea why you think because someone is a Christian they are trying to hide something, or assume that it's because there's something "fucked up" about that person. i became a Christian because i was sitting in my room one night and accidentally tuned into Radio Rhema on the AM frequency instead of the FM station, and they had a prayer show. i thought i'd keep listening, and there were people calling up with their life struggles, like a woman who's mother was dying of cancer, and a girl who was stressed about her SC exams, and a man who's daughter had gone to Australia and didn't want to keep in touch with him anymore, and it just made me realise there are so many things in life that we as people can't really deal with, and made me want to believe that there was a God who was looking out for everyone because otherwise all those stories were just so hopeless. and so i started reading the Gideons New Testament they handed out in assembly years back which i had never read before but i wanted to be able to pray with those people who called up and prayed together with the radio hosts on air, and i thought in order to do that i'd have to understand it first so that's why i started getting into Christianity by reading the Bible and going to Church to see what it's all about
what do i think is evil? people treating other people badly, people being selfish, people who make fun of Jesus' death and making false claims about God, such as that He only wants power, when they haven't even read the Bible to find out what it's really all about (not that i'm not guilty of these myself, but i consider these evil things)
also i'm sick of people making up facts about me, for example saying that i think i'm better than anyone else 'cos i know Jesus, or that i judge others here on this message board when i haven't even seen their usernames before they reply to my posts accusing me of doing that. most of my family and friends aren't Christians and if i ever thought like that then i would be thinking i'm any more worthy than they are of knowing God, which is just crap. there's such a prejudiced idea of who i am on this message board that has no basis and i often have to defend myself from all these accusations that just come with no evidence
you can thank Douglas and Prebble for the fact that our economy is relatively stable today, also if i wanted to vote selfishly i'd vote for Labour because i get more benefits from them than if i voted for ACT
Oh, you mean Douglas and Prebble when they were IN the Labour Party. And what exactly does this have to do with selfishness? Or are you just chucking in a bit of irrelevant ACT propaganda?
And while you may get more out of a Labour government now, being a law student you can probably expect more than the average bear in the future, can't you? When you're 50 years old and getting paid an average salary (and not a small business owner) and expect that this will not change for the rest of your life THEN you can say you're not being selfish by supporting ACT.
> Oh, you mean Douglas and Prebble when they were IN the Labour Party. And what exactly does this have to do with selfishness? Or are you just chucking in a bit of irrelevant ACT propaganda?
no the point is, the two founders of ACT did all the things other politicians wouldn't, by privatising the SOEs, cutting tax from 60c per dollar to 39, etc... these were unselfish things to do because they were for the better of the whole country, even though they got kicked out of their party for doing this
> And while you may get more out of a Labour government now, being a law student you can probably expect more than the average bear in the future, can't you? When you're 50 years old and getting paid an average salary (and not a small business owner) and expect that this will not change for the rest of your life THEN you can say you're not being selfish by supporting ACT.
no i can say that i'm not being selfish NOW because i know that tax cuts isn't about helping me personally but helping others especially the poor in the long term. believe it or not if it possible to be unselfish when you're a rich person, just because you're rich does not make you selfish, and just because you're poor does not make you unselfish. for example say i was a rich lawyer, i would say that tax cuts are not selfish because it means i can use my money to support the things i believe will help people more (charities, Salvation Army, etc) rather than for the money to be forcefully used for the current government's welfare programme, which has potential for abuse (eg. the unemployment benefit having no time limits and relatively easy to apply for) and is in my opinion generally economically bad policy (eg. WFF, no interest on student loans)
I think you're relying on some eceonomic theories you've heard some a lecturer rattle on about in an economics lecture, I suggest perhaps you take a sociology/social policy paper. If you go in with an open mind you'll likely find it will broaden your mind a great deal.
There's far more to life than ecomonics buddy. If maximizing the economy was what life was about it would make sense to send all pre-school kids into labour too, because they just sit around doing nothing most of the day, why not make them work? Those little bludgers...
The thing is, when tax cuts became one of the hot topics of the election a whole bunch of people didn't suddenly think "ooh, I'm going to vote for National or ACT this election because it means I can donate more of my money to charity!"
Example: The party I was at on election night, one girl there voted National because she worked out that the extra money she got from their proposed tax cuts would buy her one more cocktail on saturday night. I'm not saying this is typical, but not everyone has the same views on charity as you claim you do.
And believe it or not, not everyone who is rich likes to donate large sums of money to charity.
And by "things i believe will help people more [than welfare]" do you mean religion?
> The thing is, when tax cuts became one of the hot topics of the election a whole bunch of people didn't suddenly think "ooh, I'm going to vote for National or ACT this election because it means I can donate more of my money to charity!"
yeah i know what you mean and i would be foolish to think that that is why the majority of people want tax cuts - so they can give away their money. what i do know though from studying economics is that tax cuts definitely result in an increase in investment, which is good for the economy as a whole indirectly due to increase in the production sector. this is not just beneficial to the rich, the direct results of tax cuts is beneficial to the rich only, but the effects of a more booming economy benefits society as a whole. as an example, the 4th Labour government and all the reforms it did - Helen Clark and Michael Cullen today criticise those reforms and were in the dissenting camp who backed Lange in kicking out Douglas and take credit for today's stable economy, but if you study economics you know a stable economy doesn't just grow overnight and if the 80s reforms were so bad they certainly haven't taken any steps to overturn them, such as reintroducing trade barriers, mass subsidising farmers so that overseas competition would be crowded out, put the top tax rate back to 66%, like Rodney Hide says - if you want to be completely altruistic, why not set the top tax rate higher? the people who don't understand economics will probably think, well because i want to keep more of my money and you can't be that selfless, and those who think beyond personal gains will know that businesses won't be profitable and not worth investing in, and the government is inefficient in spending money as a monopoly, as the Muldoon era proved
> And by "things i believe will help people more [than welfare]" do you mean religion?
no, i genuinely think Churches do more for poor people than the government does. this is because in Churches (and i'm not saying all of them either) the people do more than just hand out money, they go and visit the people, and befriend them etc. etc. it's more personal, whereas if you were on the dole you just have a case manager who gives you money, it's just a beuracratic process, a beneficiary could be spending it all on drugs and not feeding their kids, but because it's all run centrally by government laws there's no real "personal caring" involved just institutions like WINZ and CYF that can have lots of problems. and they can't even force you to take a job if you don't want it, you can just walk into a WINZ office say you've been looking for work but can't find any, and there can be all these jobs available but you just pretend you can't get them. Richard Prebble once offered a lady a job which she could easily have done but she said why bother working 40 hours a week when she can go on the dole and get about 30 hours worth of what she would have earned? she would give up 10 hours pay for getting (say it was $400) by just simply doing nothing and getting $300
i'm just using Church as an example, there are also other private charitable organisations that help poor people - and more could be afforded to start up if people didn't have to give 1/3 of their income to the State. when i studied trusts and wills in law you learn so much about rich people dying and leaving behind all their money for charitable purposes and a lot of the charitable organisations that reach out to heaps and heaps of people in NZ were started up by private individuals, so it's not just a tiny sector of society that are helped
and this is just what i heard from Muriel Newman (ex ACT MP) but people she knew who had the money and could afford to start up a private hospital weren't allowed to because the government has regulations about how many hospitals were allowed in this certain area (it was in the North Shore somewhere) and basically it was because if it started up it would be in direct competition with the government hospital, and so they couldn't do something beneficial to society because of that
Ok where to start?
1. acknowledging a 'dark side'. I know quite a few christians for whom christianity is a part of their lives. I also know a few who it is their whole lives. The first group are well rounded people who are usually happily married, enjoy life, have an appreciation of things outside the bible... basically live a 'normal' life. The latter wear christianity as a mask, often to try to hide stuff whether that be alcoholism, homosexuality, a personality disorder, depression, gender dysphoria, mental illness- whatever. It isn't a very good mask, you know the line "methinks the lady doth protest too much" in Hamlet? kinda sums it up really. If all you are is a christian it makes me wonder what it is you are trying to hide.
2. Happiness... your comment shows incredible naiveté. Philosophy is all about finding happiness in this world, or at the very least acceptance of bad things. Religion in my opinion is largely the same thing, sure it is AN answer to the great questions of creation and so forth but in the end of the day is gives you a framework to deal with those 'shit happens' moments and an answer to the inevitability of death.
My view JC we are here for a very short time and odds are you are wrong about an afterlife. Humankind is not the centre of the universe and so even if there is an afterlife isn't it terribly arrogant to think we are the ones a god would want to save? personally I'd rather save the cats and dogs than the people. My view, we are all going to die one day and that is it, game over- why be miserable while you are here?
For that matter why be a drainer and make others miserable?
Denouncing things, is a matter of perspective. If all you ever go on about is christian this and christian that effectively you are denouncing the non christian. You shut yourself away from anything non christian that is denouncement by disassociation. I was embellishing by using the word satanic.
3. God the nasty voyeur and Freud. So you were sitting in your room listening to peoples problems on radio rhema and became christian? My perspective, if there is a god he is a negligent landlord, we're fucking up his property and he doesn't want to evict us? Another view is that maybe god is one evil satanic fucker himself, looking down on all the evil things we do to each other like its a soap opera. What confort is ther really in believing in a god who likes to watch his people suffer? The guy is a sadist.
Ever read John Donne's sonnet 14? Batter my heart three person god/ As you yet but knock, breathe, shine, seek to mend..., I can understand Donne's perspective 'I want to believe in you but you ain't doing shit to prove it, show yourself!" God believes it is enough to take his word for things, believe in me and I will not make your life any better but I may help you out once you die, gotta say he'd make a crap politician or ad exec, where is the impetus? whats in it for me in the one thing we are certain of? the right here and now?
Instead you find confort is such a god?
time to introduce a bit of freud here TO UNDERSTAND A SITUATION WE NEED TO INTERNALIZE IT, TO RUN IT PAST OUR OWN EXPERIENCE AND PUT YOURSELF IN THE OTHER PERSONS SHOES, lets run that concept aye JC.
Say I am unhappy and listening to unhappy people on the radio, lets say what I am hearing is a voice on the radio telling me all is ok cause the big guy is watching and everything is fine, maybe I might internalize that and come to the conclusion it might be the answer to my problems- if I was troubled it might bring me a lot of comfort.
If I wasn't dealing with some kind of bad voodoo though why would it bring me comfort? wouldn't I be listening and thinking Rhema hasn't solved this persons problems, the girl is still going to die, and the church is not going to reunite the guy with his daughter. They have done nothing for the root cause, all they have done is administered a placebo.
Of course if I was depressed or failing to deal with some personal issue I sure feel a lot better, for about five minutes............. then the placebo effect starts to wear off, is this why you sound like a broken record JC, while you pretend you are here to convert others you are really just administering yourself a Jesus enema?
> My view, we are all going to die one day and that is it, game over- why be miserable while you are here?
well i don't disagree with that, nobody wants to be miserable. but that doesn't change the fact that whether or not you are a Christian you will still have happy times and unhappy times. the point i'm making is the choice to become a Christian isn't so that i can become happy (as your philisophical definition of what a religion is about) - i choose to be a Christian because it's like handing in a lost wallet to the police - i'm not doing it for the reward, even though the Bible says there is a reward, the purpose of handing it in is because i think it is the right thing to do, eg. all the lessons Jesus taught about loving your neighbours. and as for God being uncaring and a negligent landlord, well i think the Bible is about teaching us how to do things right and that if we followed them correctly there wouldn't be things like hatred and conflict in this world, like your example of a politician - a politician can have a lot of policies, such as when i'm in government i will set down rules saying don't commit crimes. if people follow those rules it will work out and if people don't that doesn't make the rules wrong. you're right that the Bible is "an" explanation for what happens after we die and we can't definitely be sure of it, but at the same time we can't definitely be sure that it's wrong either
he's got a point. if you dont believe you get nothing. if you do, you might get something. jc is a gambler with a card up his sleeve. whereas the great dealer hasnt delt ishtar a hand yet.
life of pie- that book, says something along the same lines maybe.
personally im into dragon rouge and therion. check it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Rouge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therion_%28band%29
> 1. acknowledging a 'dark side'. I know quite a few christians for whom christianity is a part of their lives. I also know a few who it is their whole lives. The first group are well rounded people who are usually happily married, enjoy life, have an appreciation of things outside the bible... basically live a 'normal' life. The latter wear christianity as a mask, often to try to hide stuff whether that be alcoholism, homosexuality, a personality disorder, depression, gender dysphoria, mental illness- whatever. It isn't a very good mask, you know the line "methinks the lady doth protest too much" in Hamlet? kinda sums it up really. If all you are is a christian it makes me wonder what it is you are trying to hide.
i don't know if you're trying to get at the idea that i have no appreciation of things "outside the Bible" as you put it, but Christianity is a part of every part of my life, whether i'm happily married, or an alcoholic, if you are a Christian you don't say you are only a Christian when you're happily married but not when you're an alcoholic - i think it's about letting your Christianity guide it. so like if you are in a marriage, you would follow God's rules about treating your wife good. and if you're an alcoholic, it means you realise the Bible says to keep in a stable mind and not get drunk and you try to deal with that. it doesn't necessarily mean you won't yell at your wife sometimes, or still get drunk, but it's about letting Chrsitianity be a part of all of your life - as i do with mine, that i pray about the happy things (eg. thanking God for friends) or unhappy things (praying that things will get better with friends, or for example that He will help me with my depression)
> Humankind is not the centre of the universe and so even if there is an afterlife isn't it terribly arrogant to think we are the ones a god would want to save? personally I'd rather save the cats and dogs than the people. My view, we are all going to die one day and that is it, game over- why be miserable while you are here?
For that matter why be a drainer and make others miserable?
Denouncing things, is a matter of perspective. If all you ever go on about is christian this and christian that effectively you are denouncing the non christian. You shut yourself away from anything non christian that is denouncement by disassociation. I was embellishing by using the word satanic.
well i am not so sure about humans not being the centre of the universe, but it isn't about arrogance, and who knows what happens to cats and dogs? some Christians claim they don't go to Heaven because they don't have souls, does that mean there are no trees in Heaven either? i don't know. it's just that when you're a Christian you believe that you are saved, not because you deserved it (in fact if you read the Bible we implicitly weren't worth it) but because God loved us enough to do it. and as for cats and dogs, i do my bit for animals by being a vegetarian. how is telling people that Jesus died for us so that we wouldn't have to go to Hell make them miserable? they may be miserable because they don't believe it, or whatever, but it's like saying to someone their life was saved by war veterans, and they don't want to believe it, and see you telling them that as miserable. and as for denouncing things, what do you mean, like denouncing evil Satanic things? denouncing non-Christian means denouncing bad things humans do, like cheat or steal or lie, that doesn't necessarily mean denouncing people who are not Christians, it is denouncing all the cheating and stealing and lying that non-Christians as well as Christians do
> Another view is that maybe god is one evil satanic fucker himself, looking down on all the evil things we do to each other like its a soap opera. What confort is ther really in believing in a god who likes to watch his people suffer? The guy is a sadist.
well that could be your view of what God is, but if you believe God to be the "Chrsitian" God defined in the Bible then that's not what He's like - in the Bible God created humans to live according to His ways but we have a choice whether or not to follow those rules, eg. a landlord that says to his tenants, you can have the house but there are rules and i have done the best to make the rules work so that if you follow them things will be ok (eg. do not hate each other and envy one another). He provides the rules but doesn't force them on to us, why He doesn't force them well i don't know, some things aren't explained in the Bible. but you saying that He likes to watch us suffer, i mean that's like saying the landlord loves to watch his tenants suffer, a tenant could be thinking that, but how do you know the landlord isn't feeling sad and pained that his tenants are going through that? or for example, when i was younger i may have thought my dad was happy to leave my family and enjoyed us suffering, but how do i know he wasn't bearing through lots of pain thinking about it and trying his best to do things right by leaving the country to his job to provide for us?
> Ever read John Donne's sonnet 14? Batter my heart three person god/ As you yet but knock, breathe, shine, seek to mend..., I can understand Donne's perspective 'I want to believe in you but you ain't doing shit to prove it, show yourself!" God believes it is enough to take his word for things, believe in me and I will not make your life any better but I may help you out once you die, gotta say he'd make a crap politician or ad exec, where is the impetus? whats in it for me in the one thing we are certain of? the right here and now?
He may not make our life better, but He can help with it depending on what you decide to do with what He's taught in the Bible. for example a lot of missionaries and charity groups are a result of people following God's principles. what's in it for you? depends on what you decide to do with God's ideas, for example, the Bible says be graceful and grace will be given unto you, or love your neighbours as yourself, i guess in a way what's in it for you is the peace of mind that you're doing something that's right, such as handing in the wallet to the police station. as for not doing things to proveit - well 1 John in the New Testament says God is love, and in all the good things people do, and that when we do things for other people and when they do things for us that is expressing God's love through us. take from that what you will
> Say I am unhappy and listening to unhappy people on the radio, lets say what I am hearing is a voice on the radio telling me all is ok cause the big guy is watching and everything is fine, maybe I might internalize that and come to the conclusion it might be the answer to my problems- if I was troubled it might bring me a lot of comfort. If I wasn't dealing with some kind of bad voodoo though why would it bring me comfort? wouldn't I be listening and thinking Rhema hasn't solved this persons problems, the girl is still going to die, and the church is not going to reunite the guy with his daughter. They have done nothing for the root cause, all they have done is administered a placebo.
well you can still pray that the mother will be able to bear through the pain and appreciate the little bit of life she has before she dies, that the man's daughter will get along ok and that maybe someday he will get to see her again and she will want to come back to him, or that the girl who is sitting the exam will have the spiritual peace of mind to do the exam ok, doesn't necessarily mean the woman won't go through pain, that the man won't ever see his daughter again, that she won't fail her exam, but just know that your thoughts are with God and that He has a reason for things happening
> Of course if I was depressed or failing to deal with some personal issue I sure feel a lot better, for about five minutes............. then the placebo effect starts to wear off, is this why you sound like a broken record JC, while you pretend you are here to convert others you are really just administering yourself a Jesus enema?
i don't know what you mean by pretending i am here to convert others, or about the five minute placebo thing, what's a Jesus enema? what i'm doing is simply having a discussion on Christianity, just as a politician may be discussing policy with people with different policitical views. in fact, most of my topics are about just me talking about what my goals are for my music, because i like to set down goals and also see what other people's goals are. it's the rest of youse who start up the debates and questioning
Plenty of people believe in god without ramming it down others throats, religion is not the issue here, JC's behaviour is. I could point out that govt institutions have people to police their rules and an adherance to the ten commandments is not exclusive to christians neither is breaking them exclusive to us heathens etc.......... but it is getting off the point, JC you are in some way inadequate and use religion to hide that, in reality you only hide it from yourself. That is the point. full stop.
Of course you will write some diatribe back about how I am wrong and the glory of god blah, blah, blah..... in advance I am saying that is just avoidance.
I've stated my opinion, will just leave it at that.
I agree with Tama drummer and Manamana's comments. JC leave church at the pulpit, it is getting out of hand.
dude the issue here is (agreed the topic is gay, but) you can't argue a point for shit. and i quote...
"JC you are in some way inadequate and use religion to hide that, in reality you only hide it from yourself. That is the point. full stop. Of course you will write some diatribe back about how I am wrong and the glory of god blah, blah, blah..... in advance I am saying that is just avoidance.
I've stated my opinion, will just leave it at that. "
You two are just bashing heads (when you should be docking). whats the point in arguing if you both just say the other is wrong and take your ball and run home.
i wonder if god has a spare room in heaven for peoplelike jesus crux, i imagine when jesus crux arives at the pearly gates a beeper will go off and peter will have to consult god personally about the one,
god having seen the future knows that in all fairness he should let jesus crux in, but being an all seeing god, he's looked into the future and he's seen jesus crux (who has developed such an obsession for preaching the gospel) continuing to preach to the non sinners inside heaven, and further more starts getting really pedantic with god about certain details of the doctrine and about the way heaven should be run.
and so, while there's no loophole to send jesus (who while possessing a pristine soul has spent a lifetime doing negative PR for te cause) crux to hell for being an anooying cunt...it would probably be a just reason for god to invest in some fresh realestate.
What the fuck has happened?? is nzmusic.com now a christian site??
come on really, how many topics really need to be about this, it seems the active comments here & the bar is filled with it!!
If I wanted to know about christianity, I would buy a bible!!
I share it and may have even voiced it once or twice on here. It gets far too like a naive theology lesson around here due to the nature of the posts and how they continue sometimes.
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Wow, not a lot of interest in this poll ...
Wow, not a lot of interest in this poll so far... yet so much in topics. Hmmm.
Although I probably stumbled over this ...
Although I probably stumbled over this ungracefully when trying to state my case against JC's religious arguments, I really like the fact that NZM is more an online meeting place for musicians and music lovers to discuss EVERYTHING than just a music discussion forum. I think all subjects should be up for debate - but if you're going to open a can of worms, be prepared to get an alternating view to your own.
My issue is that JC has kind of worn out his welcome on the "I'm a christian and I play christian music and the music I like is this christian artist and here's some christian lyrics I think really tell us about god's love for all us christians" tip, not to mention the infamous right wing bands thread.
It will be a sad day when NZM is just for talking about music and nothing else.
Nah I don't think the issue is about ...
Nah I don't think the issue is about keeping it narrowly focussed on music, more that faith-based discussions are not far away from other forum killer issues that are banned in forums like this one. Some topics are so inflammatory and naturally dominating that they are discouraged for the sake of the overall community.
I guess the trick is to be careful when they start to dominate discussions...
Me - I prefer to let the votes decide!
so white rhino basically you have ...
so white rhino basically you have something against someone being themselves for too long, for example if someone's music was about, say rap music about being a gangsta they wouldn't be able to keep talking about it. looking at all my topics i've made, besides the classified ones where i am looking for other Christian musicians, i am pretty sure i've never posted the same topic twice
//looking at all my topics i've made, ...
//looking at all my topics i've made, besides the classified ones where i am looking for other Christian musicians, i am pretty sure i've never posted the same topic twice
You have, however, posted a very large number of topics (not including classifieds) compared to most other members. You've started 59 topics (- x number of classified topics) for 233 posts (so about 4 posts to every topic you've made). In contrast, Heather has made 78 posts per topic she's started. Blink, despite doing a lot of tour advertising topics, still rouns out 40 posts per topic started. I'm not saying that you shouldn't start topics, but that if you start a lot of topics, then you run the risk of dominating the topics being discussed.
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I'm not a religious bloke, and I ...
I'm not a religious bloke, and I don't particually like the fact that religion for the most part has / is the root of pretty much all evil in this world .. Northern Ireland, Iraq, Israel, and numerous other place's through out the globe .. and yes I know there are sometimes other factors also ( oil for instance ) but for the most part it's in the name of a god of some sort .. musliums, Christains, jews, cathloics, various factions of these groups .. all seem to think they have the answers .. answers to what .. ?? I tend to lean towards science .. maybe even space .. :-) but all that said I live in a democracy and I welcome freedom of speach and expression so long as no harm is ment .. maybe tone it down alittle J.C. but don't stop.
the same could be argued the other way ...
the same could be argued the other way - that non-religion is the reason for wars, eg. all the wars in history from non-religious countries. it just happens to be that most people believed in a God in the old days and that was when the wars were - that doesn't mean religion is the cause, they want things that most religions preach against, such as greed and power. it's like saying the New Zealand wars were caused by non-religion when the Maori tribes fought against each other
thou shalt not kill is a commandment, therefore invalidates all the arguments about how they kill others in the name of God and therefore God is the cause
as i mentioned in one of my other ...
as i mentioned in one of my other posts, it's like saying that there is the criminal law in NZ, which says you cannot kill someone else. and if someone goes on a big rampage and kills a lot of people, does that mean the criminal law is wrong? no it doesn't
and as for toning it down... well i don't know how much lower i am meant to tone it down if people keep attacking my toned down statements and starting the arguments, which requires rebuttal. take for example and see which party needs to tone things down?
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//thou shalt not kill is a commandment, ...
//thou shalt not kill is a commandment, therefore invalidates all the arguments about how they kill others in the name of God and therefore God is the cause
Actually, the original Hebrew for "thou shalt not kill" used the word to describe murder as distinct from killing someone during a war. Hence all those Jehovah-endorsed wars that happened after the ten commandments were received, including Joshua's battle at Gibeon where God kept the sun in the sky for a full 24 hours so that the Israelites would win, and the battle featuring David killing Goliath.
in the name of Allah isn't used by ...
in the name of Allah isn't used by religious factions of the islamic community when they blow themselves and others up with bombs, isn't that in the name of a god ? didn't ancient cultures or primitive tribes appease their gods with blood, either by sacrifice or wars ? Chritanity didn't get to where it is today without blood being shed. I think people killed through out time in the name of a god of some sort far out weigh any other reason for the mass death's of humans over the millenia .. is George bush not a Christian are his ideas on how iraq should be run and governed based on his Christian ideals and values ? some may not want this to happen in their musilum country .. as I'm sure a number of Americans wouldn't want it to happen in theirs, it's going to cause conflict .. okay the oil is the main reason for the war we all know that .. but there's another war going on too I feel... who know's maybe I'm wrong on every front .. as I said I'm not religious so am talking out of a hole in my head on this for the most part.
See Heather you know so much more than ...
See Heather you know so much more than I .. I tend to babble with no real direction and little fact .. :-).
//I tend to babble with no real ...
//I tend to babble with no real direction and little fact .. :-).
bahaha! If only others were as honest & humble as you... ;-)
Actually, I'm just better at talking shit and making it sound plausible.
:-) ... in that case I wish i had that ...
:-) ... in that case I wish i had that gift ..
Well, under the <i>The Bar</i> heading ...
Well, under the The Bar heading on the Forums top page, NZM does say, " Hell, it's a bar - do what you like, but if it gets messy watch for bouncers!"...
In your case JC I think your religion ...
In your case JC I think your religion is a measure of your own issues and hang ups. Says to me you are/ possibly were not the most popular guy before some born agains hijacked you for an evening. I don't know your back story dude but you seem typical of a number of lonely foreign students I've worked with in the past. Also suggests you have a side to you that maybe you don't want to acknowledge, take from that what you will.
You do get that some people are actually happy without having religion in their lives JC? I think all of us need something in our lives to bring us happiness and confort, primary narcisism I think they call it, whether it is a loved one, acceptance, money, status, music, belongings, religion, a purpose... whatever- (and usually a combination of many of the above) you seem very blinkered at times to that, is that because you see anything not fitting into a christian framework as satanic? You know that to denounce anything as such says more about your primary responces to it than properties of said practices......
If we want to talk religion lets ask the question JC, as I am presuming you weren't brought up christian, what led you towards it?
What do you consider evil? and what have you got to atone for JC?
All too often religion becomes a measure of sorrow, those unhappiest jump in the most wholeheartedly. Question JC are you so much better off for wearing a crucifix? or is there a root issue still undealt with? what are you hiding?
Wanna talk religion? you cannot tell others why it might be a good thing for others before you understand you.
So come on who is Jesus Crux and how do you find yourself the fanatic you are today? See if you can take a crack at this leaving your dogma at the door
and umm.... my vote, "Allow some, but ...
and umm.... my vote, "Allow some, but more moderation is required."
Anyway awaiting your response JC.
:-) good call simon ......
:-) good call simon ...
> In your case JC I think your religion ...
> In your case JC I think your religion is a measure of your own issues and hang ups. Says to me you are/ possibly were not the most popular guy before some born agains hijacked you for an evening. I don't know your back story dude but you seem typical of a number of lonely foreign students I've worked with in the past. Also suggests you have a side to you that maybe you don't want to acknowledge, take from that what you will.
whatever that means, first of all i'm not a foreign student, also i don't know where you get the idea there's a side of me i don't want to acknowledge
> You do get that some people are actually happy without having religion in their lives JC? I think all of us need something in our lives to bring us happiness and confort, primary narcisism I think they call it, whether it is a loved one, acceptance, money, status, music, belongings, religion, a purpose... whatever- (and usually a combination of many of the above) you seem very blinkered at times to that, is that because you see anything not fitting into a christian framework as satanic? You know that to denounce anything as such says more about your primary responces to it than properties of said practices......
well you're talking from a very typical non-Christian viewpoint, that people become Christians in order to "live happier lives". in fact most of the Bible talks about how you have to go through suffering as a Christian, and people who become Christians for the purpose of getting joy, well in most cases they will be disappointed. Christianity to me is about following God, not because it will bring me benefits (even though it will, as well as detriments), but because it's the "right" thing to do. you can be a Christian and very happy or a Christian and very depressed, as well as being a non-Christian and very happy and non-Christian and very depressed. and where have i denounced anything non-Christian as Satanic?
> If we want to talk religion lets ask the question JC, as I am presuming you weren't brought up christian, what led you towards it?
What do you consider evil? and what have you got to atone for JC?
All too often religion becomes a measure of sorrow, those unhappiest jump in the most wholeheartedly. Question JC are you so much better off for wearing a crucifix? or is there a root issue still undealt with? what are you hiding?
Wanna talk religion? you cannot tell others why it might be a good thing for others before you understand you.
So come on who is Jesus Crux and how do you find yourself the fanatic you are today? See if you can take a crack at this leaving your dogma at the door
i have no idea why you think because someone is a Christian they are trying to hide something, or assume that it's because there's something "fucked up" about that person. i became a Christian because i was sitting in my room one night and accidentally tuned into Radio Rhema on the AM frequency instead of the FM station, and they had a prayer show. i thought i'd keep listening, and there were people calling up with their life struggles, like a woman who's mother was dying of cancer, and a girl who was stressed about her SC exams, and a man who's daughter had gone to Australia and didn't want to keep in touch with him anymore, and it just made me realise there are so many things in life that we as people can't really deal with, and made me want to believe that there was a God who was looking out for everyone because otherwise all those stories were just so hopeless. and so i started reading the Gideons New Testament they handed out in assembly years back which i had never read before but i wanted to be able to pray with those people who called up and prayed together with the radio hosts on air, and i thought in order to do that i'd have to understand it first so that's why i started getting into Christianity by reading the Bible and going to Church to see what it's all about
what do i think is evil? people treating other people badly, people being selfish, people who make fun of Jesus' death and making false claims about God, such as that He only wants power, when they haven't even read the Bible to find out what it's really all about (not that i'm not guilty of these myself, but i consider these evil things)
also i'm sick of people making up facts about me, for example saying that i think i'm better than anyone else 'cos i know Jesus, or that i judge others here on this message board when i haven't even seen their usernames before they reply to my posts accusing me of doing that. most of my family and friends aren't Christians and if i ever thought like that then i would be thinking i'm any more worthy than they are of knowing God, which is just crap. there's such a prejudiced idea of who i am on this message board that has no basis and i often have to defend myself from all these accusations that just come with no evidence
you do god no favours...
you do god no favours
//people being selfish *cough* ACT ...
//people being selfish
*cough* ACT Party *cough*
you can thank Douglas and Prebble for ...
you can thank Douglas and Prebble for the fact that our economy is relatively stable today, also if i wanted to vote selfishly i'd vote for Labour because i get more benefits from them than if i voted for ACT
Oh, you mean Douglas and Prebble when ...
Oh, you mean Douglas and Prebble when they were IN the Labour Party. And what exactly does this have to do with selfishness? Or are you just chucking in a bit of irrelevant ACT propaganda?
And while you may get more out of a Labour government now, being a law student you can probably expect more than the average bear in the future, can't you? When you're 50 years old and getting paid an average salary (and not a small business owner) and expect that this will not change for the rest of your life THEN you can say you're not being selfish by supporting ACT.
> Oh, you mean Douglas and Prebble when ...
> Oh, you mean Douglas and Prebble when they were IN the Labour Party. And what exactly does this have to do with selfishness? Or are you just chucking in a bit of irrelevant ACT propaganda?
no the point is, the two founders of ACT did all the things other politicians wouldn't, by privatising the SOEs, cutting tax from 60c per dollar to 39, etc... these were unselfish things to do because they were for the better of the whole country, even though they got kicked out of their party for doing this
> And while you may get more out of a Labour government now, being a law student you can probably expect more than the average bear in the future, can't you? When you're 50 years old and getting paid an average salary (and not a small business owner) and expect that this will not change for the rest of your life THEN you can say you're not being selfish by supporting ACT.
no i can say that i'm not being selfish NOW because i know that tax cuts isn't about helping me personally but helping others especially the poor in the long term. believe it or not if it possible to be unselfish when you're a rich person, just because you're rich does not make you selfish, and just because you're poor does not make you unselfish. for example say i was a rich lawyer, i would say that tax cuts are not selfish because it means i can use my money to support the things i believe will help people more (charities, Salvation Army, etc) rather than for the money to be forcefully used for the current government's welfare programme, which has potential for abuse (eg. the unemployment benefit having no time limits and relatively easy to apply for) and is in my opinion generally economically bad policy (eg. WFF, no interest on student loans)
i meant, "it is possible to be ...
i meant, "it is possible to be unselfish when you're a rich person"
and just as an example of why Working For Families is bad policy, http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/archives/013624.html
I think you're relying on some ...
I think you're relying on some eceonomic theories you've heard some a lecturer rattle on about in an economics lecture, I suggest perhaps you take a sociology/social policy paper. If you go in with an open mind you'll likely find it will broaden your mind a great deal.
There's far more to life than ecomonics buddy. If maximizing the economy was what life was about it would make sense to send all pre-school kids into labour too, because they just sit around doing nothing most of the day, why not make them work? Those little bludgers...
The thing is, when tax cuts became one ...
The thing is, when tax cuts became one of the hot topics of the election a whole bunch of people didn't suddenly think "ooh, I'm going to vote for National or ACT this election because it means I can donate more of my money to charity!"
Example: The party I was at on election night, one girl there voted National because she worked out that the extra money she got from their proposed tax cuts would buy her one more cocktail on saturday night. I'm not saying this is typical, but not everyone has the same views on charity as you claim you do.
And believe it or not, not everyone who is rich likes to donate large sums of money to charity.
And by "things i believe will help people more [than welfare]" do you mean religion?
> The thing is, when tax cuts became ...
> The thing is, when tax cuts became one of the hot topics of the election a whole bunch of people didn't suddenly think "ooh, I'm going to vote for National or ACT this election because it means I can donate more of my money to charity!"
yeah i know what you mean and i would be foolish to think that that is why the majority of people want tax cuts - so they can give away their money. what i do know though from studying economics is that tax cuts definitely result in an increase in investment, which is good for the economy as a whole indirectly due to increase in the production sector. this is not just beneficial to the rich, the direct results of tax cuts is beneficial to the rich only, but the effects of a more booming economy benefits society as a whole. as an example, the 4th Labour government and all the reforms it did - Helen Clark and Michael Cullen today criticise those reforms and were in the dissenting camp who backed Lange in kicking out Douglas and take credit for today's stable economy, but if you study economics you know a stable economy doesn't just grow overnight and if the 80s reforms were so bad they certainly haven't taken any steps to overturn them, such as reintroducing trade barriers, mass subsidising farmers so that overseas competition would be crowded out, put the top tax rate back to 66%, like Rodney Hide says - if you want to be completely altruistic, why not set the top tax rate higher? the people who don't understand economics will probably think, well because i want to keep more of my money and you can't be that selfless, and those who think beyond personal gains will know that businesses won't be profitable and not worth investing in, and the government is inefficient in spending money as a monopoly, as the Muldoon era proved
> And by "things i believe will help people more [than welfare]" do you mean religion?
no, i genuinely think Churches do more for poor people than the government does. this is because in Churches (and i'm not saying all of them either) the people do more than just hand out money, they go and visit the people, and befriend them etc. etc. it's more personal, whereas if you were on the dole you just have a case manager who gives you money, it's just a beuracratic process, a beneficiary could be spending it all on drugs and not feeding their kids, but because it's all run centrally by government laws there's no real "personal caring" involved just institutions like WINZ and CYF that can have lots of problems. and they can't even force you to take a job if you don't want it, you can just walk into a WINZ office say you've been looking for work but can't find any, and there can be all these jobs available but you just pretend you can't get them. Richard Prebble once offered a lady a job which she could easily have done but she said why bother working 40 hours a week when she can go on the dole and get about 30 hours worth of what she would have earned? she would give up 10 hours pay for getting (say it was $400) by just simply doing nothing and getting $300
i'm just using Church as an example, there are also other private charitable organisations that help poor people - and more could be afforded to start up if people didn't have to give 1/3 of their income to the State. when i studied trusts and wills in law you learn so much about rich people dying and leaving behind all their money for charitable purposes and a lot of the charitable organisations that reach out to heaps and heaps of people in NZ were started up by private individuals, so it's not just a tiny sector of society that are helped
and this is just what i heard from Muriel Newman (ex ACT MP) but people she knew who had the money and could afford to start up a private hospital weren't allowed to because the government has regulations about how many hospitals were allowed in this certain area (it was in the North Shore somewhere) and basically it was because if it started up it would be in direct competition with the government hospital, and so they couldn't do something beneficial to society because of that
Stuff all this suffering shit. As ...
Stuff all this suffering shit.
As Bill Hicks once said
"You pay for life with death, so everything else should be free"
My advice (If its wanted)
Live how YOU want to live JC. Don't let anyone else judge you.
Personally I can't be bothered with all the bible shit...they are just stories and playboy has better ones (with pictures)
Ok where to start? 1. acknowledging a ...
Ok where to start?
1. acknowledging a 'dark side'. I know quite a few christians for whom christianity is a part of their lives. I also know a few who it is their whole lives. The first group are well rounded people who are usually happily married, enjoy life, have an appreciation of things outside the bible... basically live a 'normal' life. The latter wear christianity as a mask, often to try to hide stuff whether that be alcoholism, homosexuality, a personality disorder, depression, gender dysphoria, mental illness- whatever. It isn't a very good mask, you know the line "methinks the lady doth protest too much" in Hamlet? kinda sums it up really. If all you are is a christian it makes me wonder what it is you are trying to hide.
2. Happiness... your comment shows incredible naiveté. Philosophy is all about finding happiness in this world, or at the very least acceptance of bad things. Religion in my opinion is largely the same thing, sure it is AN answer to the great questions of creation and so forth but in the end of the day is gives you a framework to deal with those 'shit happens' moments and an answer to the inevitability of death.
My view JC we are here for a very short time and odds are you are wrong about an afterlife. Humankind is not the centre of the universe and so even if there is an afterlife isn't it terribly arrogant to think we are the ones a god would want to save? personally I'd rather save the cats and dogs than the people. My view, we are all going to die one day and that is it, game over- why be miserable while you are here?
For that matter why be a drainer and make others miserable?
Denouncing things, is a matter of perspective. If all you ever go on about is christian this and christian that effectively you are denouncing the non christian. You shut yourself away from anything non christian that is denouncement by disassociation. I was embellishing by using the word satanic.
3. God the nasty voyeur and Freud. So you were sitting in your room listening to peoples problems on radio rhema and became christian? My perspective, if there is a god he is a negligent landlord, we're fucking up his property and he doesn't want to evict us? Another view is that maybe god is one evil satanic fucker himself, looking down on all the evil things we do to each other like its a soap opera. What confort is ther really in believing in a god who likes to watch his people suffer? The guy is a sadist.
Ever read John Donne's sonnet 14? Batter my heart three person god/ As you yet but knock, breathe, shine, seek to mend..., I can understand Donne's perspective 'I want to believe in you but you ain't doing shit to prove it, show yourself!" God believes it is enough to take his word for things, believe in me and I will not make your life any better but I may help you out once you die, gotta say he'd make a crap politician or ad exec, where is the impetus? whats in it for me in the one thing we are certain of? the right here and now?
Instead you find confort is such a god?
time to introduce a bit of freud here TO UNDERSTAND A SITUATION WE NEED TO INTERNALIZE IT, TO RUN IT PAST OUR OWN EXPERIENCE AND PUT YOURSELF IN THE OTHER PERSONS SHOES, lets run that concept aye JC.
Say I am unhappy and listening to unhappy people on the radio, lets say what I am hearing is a voice on the radio telling me all is ok cause the big guy is watching and everything is fine, maybe I might internalize that and come to the conclusion it might be the answer to my problems- if I was troubled it might bring me a lot of comfort.
If I wasn't dealing with some kind of bad voodoo though why would it bring me comfort? wouldn't I be listening and thinking Rhema hasn't solved this persons problems, the girl is still going to die, and the church is not going to reunite the guy with his daughter. They have done nothing for the root cause, all they have done is administered a placebo.
Of course if I was depressed or failing to deal with some personal issue I sure feel a lot better, for about five minutes............. then the placebo effect starts to wear off, is this why you sound like a broken record JC, while you pretend you are here to convert others you are really just administering yourself a Jesus enema?
you do 'interesting' no favours...
you do 'interesting' no favours
> My view, we are all going to die one ...
> My view, we are all going to die one day and that is it, game over- why be miserable while you are here?
well i don't disagree with that, nobody wants to be miserable. but that doesn't change the fact that whether or not you are a Christian you will still have happy times and unhappy times. the point i'm making is the choice to become a Christian isn't so that i can become happy (as your philisophical definition of what a religion is about) - i choose to be a Christian because it's like handing in a lost wallet to the police - i'm not doing it for the reward, even though the Bible says there is a reward, the purpose of handing it in is because i think it is the right thing to do, eg. all the lessons Jesus taught about loving your neighbours. and as for God being uncaring and a negligent landlord, well i think the Bible is about teaching us how to do things right and that if we followed them correctly there wouldn't be things like hatred and conflict in this world, like your example of a politician - a politician can have a lot of policies, such as when i'm in government i will set down rules saying don't commit crimes. if people follow those rules it will work out and if people don't that doesn't make the rules wrong. you're right that the Bible is "an" explanation for what happens after we die and we can't definitely be sure of it, but at the same time we can't definitely be sure that it's wrong either
he's got a point. if you dont believe ...
he's got a point. if you dont believe you get nothing. if you do, you might get something. jc is a gambler with a card up his sleeve. whereas the great dealer hasnt delt ishtar a hand yet.
life of pie- that book, says something along the same lines maybe.
personally im into dragon rouge and therion. check it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Rouge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therion_%28band%29
> 1. acknowledging a 'dark side'. I ...
> 1. acknowledging a 'dark side'. I know quite a few christians for whom christianity is a part of their lives. I also know a few who it is their whole lives. The first group are well rounded people who are usually happily married, enjoy life, have an appreciation of things outside the bible... basically live a 'normal' life. The latter wear christianity as a mask, often to try to hide stuff whether that be alcoholism, homosexuality, a personality disorder, depression, gender dysphoria, mental illness- whatever. It isn't a very good mask, you know the line "methinks the lady doth protest too much" in Hamlet? kinda sums it up really. If all you are is a christian it makes me wonder what it is you are trying to hide.
i don't know if you're trying to get at the idea that i have no appreciation of things "outside the Bible" as you put it, but Christianity is a part of every part of my life, whether i'm happily married, or an alcoholic, if you are a Christian you don't say you are only a Christian when you're happily married but not when you're an alcoholic - i think it's about letting your Christianity guide it. so like if you are in a marriage, you would follow God's rules about treating your wife good. and if you're an alcoholic, it means you realise the Bible says to keep in a stable mind and not get drunk and you try to deal with that. it doesn't necessarily mean you won't yell at your wife sometimes, or still get drunk, but it's about letting Chrsitianity be a part of all of your life - as i do with mine, that i pray about the happy things (eg. thanking God for friends) or unhappy things (praying that things will get better with friends, or for example that He will help me with my depression)
> Humankind is not the centre of the universe and so even if there is an afterlife isn't it terribly arrogant to think we are the ones a god would want to save? personally I'd rather save the cats and dogs than the people. My view, we are all going to die one day and that is it, game over- why be miserable while you are here?
For that matter why be a drainer and make others miserable?
Denouncing things, is a matter of perspective. If all you ever go on about is christian this and christian that effectively you are denouncing the non christian. You shut yourself away from anything non christian that is denouncement by disassociation. I was embellishing by using the word satanic.
well i am not so sure about humans not being the centre of the universe, but it isn't about arrogance, and who knows what happens to cats and dogs? some Christians claim they don't go to Heaven because they don't have souls, does that mean there are no trees in Heaven either? i don't know. it's just that when you're a Christian you believe that you are saved, not because you deserved it (in fact if you read the Bible we implicitly weren't worth it) but because God loved us enough to do it. and as for cats and dogs, i do my bit for animals by being a vegetarian. how is telling people that Jesus died for us so that we wouldn't have to go to Hell make them miserable? they may be miserable because they don't believe it, or whatever, but it's like saying to someone their life was saved by war veterans, and they don't want to believe it, and see you telling them that as miserable. and as for denouncing things, what do you mean, like denouncing evil Satanic things? denouncing non-Christian means denouncing bad things humans do, like cheat or steal or lie, that doesn't necessarily mean denouncing people who are not Christians, it is denouncing all the cheating and stealing and lying that non-Christians as well as Christians do
> Another view is that maybe god is one evil satanic fucker himself, looking down on all the evil things we do to each other like its a soap opera. What confort is ther really in believing in a god who likes to watch his people suffer? The guy is a sadist.
well that could be your view of what God is, but if you believe God to be the "Chrsitian" God defined in the Bible then that's not what He's like - in the Bible God created humans to live according to His ways but we have a choice whether or not to follow those rules, eg. a landlord that says to his tenants, you can have the house but there are rules and i have done the best to make the rules work so that if you follow them things will be ok (eg. do not hate each other and envy one another). He provides the rules but doesn't force them on to us, why He doesn't force them well i don't know, some things aren't explained in the Bible. but you saying that He likes to watch us suffer, i mean that's like saying the landlord loves to watch his tenants suffer, a tenant could be thinking that, but how do you know the landlord isn't feeling sad and pained that his tenants are going through that? or for example, when i was younger i may have thought my dad was happy to leave my family and enjoyed us suffering, but how do i know he wasn't bearing through lots of pain thinking about it and trying his best to do things right by leaving the country to his job to provide for us?
> Ever read John Donne's sonnet 14? Batter my heart three person god/ As you yet but knock, breathe, shine, seek to mend..., I can understand Donne's perspective 'I want to believe in you but you ain't doing shit to prove it, show yourself!" God believes it is enough to take his word for things, believe in me and I will not make your life any better but I may help you out once you die, gotta say he'd make a crap politician or ad exec, where is the impetus? whats in it for me in the one thing we are certain of? the right here and now?
He may not make our life better, but He can help with it depending on what you decide to do with what He's taught in the Bible. for example a lot of missionaries and charity groups are a result of people following God's principles. what's in it for you? depends on what you decide to do with God's ideas, for example, the Bible says be graceful and grace will be given unto you, or love your neighbours as yourself, i guess in a way what's in it for you is the peace of mind that you're doing something that's right, such as handing in the wallet to the police station. as for not doing things to proveit - well 1 John in the New Testament says God is love, and in all the good things people do, and that when we do things for other people and when they do things for us that is expressing God's love through us. take from that what you will
> Say I am unhappy and listening to unhappy people on the radio, lets say what I am hearing is a voice on the radio telling me all is ok cause the big guy is watching and everything is fine, maybe I might internalize that and come to the conclusion it might be the answer to my problems- if I was troubled it might bring me a lot of comfort. If I wasn't dealing with some kind of bad voodoo though why would it bring me comfort? wouldn't I be listening and thinking Rhema hasn't solved this persons problems, the girl is still going to die, and the church is not going to reunite the guy with his daughter. They have done nothing for the root cause, all they have done is administered a placebo.
well you can still pray that the mother will be able to bear through the pain and appreciate the little bit of life she has before she dies, that the man's daughter will get along ok and that maybe someday he will get to see her again and she will want to come back to him, or that the girl who is sitting the exam will have the spiritual peace of mind to do the exam ok, doesn't necessarily mean the woman won't go through pain, that the man won't ever see his daughter again, that she won't fail her exam, but just know that your thoughts are with God and that He has a reason for things happening
> Of course if I was depressed or failing to deal with some personal issue I sure feel a lot better, for about five minutes............. then the placebo effect starts to wear off, is this why you sound like a broken record JC, while you pretend you are here to convert others you are really just administering yourself a Jesus enema?
i don't know what you mean by pretending i am here to convert others, or about the five minute placebo thing, what's a Jesus enema? what i'm doing is simply having a discussion on Christianity, just as a politician may be discussing policy with people with different policitical views. in fact, most of my topics are about just me talking about what my goals are for my music, because i like to set down goals and also see what other people's goals are. it's the rest of youse who start up the debates and questioning
Plenty of people believe in god without ...
Plenty of people believe in god without ramming it down others throats, religion is not the issue here, JC's behaviour is. I could point out that govt institutions have people to police their rules and an adherance to the ten commandments is not exclusive to christians neither is breaking them exclusive to us heathens etc.......... but it is getting off the point, JC you are in some way inadequate and use religion to hide that, in reality you only hide it from yourself. That is the point. full stop.
Of course you will write some diatribe back about how I am wrong and the glory of god blah, blah, blah..... in advance I am saying that is just avoidance.
I've stated my opinion, will just leave it at that.
I agree with Tama drummer and Manamana's comments. JC leave church at the pulpit, it is getting out of hand.
dude the issue here is (agreed the ...
dude the issue here is (agreed the topic is gay, but) you can't argue a point for shit. and i quote...
"JC you are in some way inadequate and use religion to hide that, in reality you only hide it from yourself. That is the point. full stop. Of course you will write some diatribe back about how I am wrong and the glory of god blah, blah, blah..... in advance I am saying that is just avoidance.
I've stated my opinion, will just leave it at that. "
You two are just bashing heads (when you should be docking). whats the point in arguing if you both just say the other is wrong and take your ball and run home.
however, let me just say that you are both cunts.
go fuck yourself bonglezbub....
go fuck yourself bonglezbub.
i am! and thinking about that tight ...
i am!
and thinking about that tight little atheist asshole of yours
well sick of all this now...
well sick of all this now
i wonder if god has a spare room in ...
i wonder if god has a spare room in heaven for peoplelike jesus crux, i imagine when jesus crux arives at the pearly gates a beeper will go off and peter will have to consult god personally about the one,
god having seen the future knows that in all fairness he should let jesus crux in, but being an all seeing god, he's looked into the future and he's seen jesus crux (who has developed such an obsession for preaching the gospel) continuing to preach to the non sinners inside heaven, and further more starts getting really pedantic with god about certain details of the doctrine and about the way heaven should be run.
and so, while there's no loophole to send jesus (who while possessing a pristine soul has spent a lifetime doing negative PR for te cause) crux to hell for being an anooying cunt...it would probably be a just reason for god to invest in some fresh realestate.
What the fuck has happened?? is ...
What the fuck has happened?? is nzmusic.com now a christian site??
come on really, how many topics really need to be about this, it seems the active comments here & the bar is filled with it!!
If I wanted to know about christianity, I would buy a bible!!
Many many people share that POV offline ...
Many many people share that POV offline it seems but aren't gonna say anything online here about it. Good on you Tama.
I share it and may have even voiced it ...
I share it and may have even voiced it once or twice on here. It gets far too like a naive theology lesson around here due to the nature of the posts and how they continue sometimes.
not to mention it's fucking boring....
not to mention it's fucking boring.
What the hell is going on round here!? ...
What the hell is going on round here!? Someone needs to lay the smack down!
I nominate you...
I nominate you
62% are saying 'more moderation - ...
62% are saying 'more moderation - discouraging it'.
Tone it back or feel the smack.
i felt the smack god. dust to dust....
i felt the smack god.
dust to dust.
I'm just a janitor on shift work ...
I'm just a janitor on shift work today.
God is small boy burning ants with a magnifying glass.
wish i had a mirror...
wish i had a mirror
I wish it was sunny...
I wish it was sunny