It's an old topic, but a goodie...
I was having a catch up with a musician mate over the phone last night into the wee small hours, and we got onto to the subject of pigeonholing bands/musicians.
The basic gist of it was that we hated the entire concept of deciding "right, I'm a (genre) musician/fan", and that a lot of our favourite bands these days were really hard to pigeonhole, or deliberately messed with listener preconceptions. EG, being equally adept within different genres, while still enjoying a strong stylistic identity through the uniqueness of their talent. Off the top of my head, artists like Hendrix, Queen, through to Gorrilaz, Sublime, Faith No More.... etc etc.
Yet when we were younger it was really natural to say "right, I'm a metal musician" (for example), and only write metal songs & buy metal records, wear metal tshirts, go to metal gigs, make friends with other metal fans... back then it didn't feel contrived at all to just like one type of music. It's so tied in with your social life/sense of self that it doesn't feel like a label.
But it's clear now that musicians and listeners of all ages will sometimes place themselves into a stylistic box - a small, windowless, yet comfortable box. A lot of people are so comfortable in their box that they have no desire to step outside of it, and they'll reject any music that doesn't quite fit into it properly. That's something I just can't relate to anymore... I mean, I could (and do) write a really heavy riff and say to myself, 'man, that's a really cool heavy riff', but I'd never be happy to sit there just writing heavy riff after heavy riff... it's boring, it's one emotion, one colour in the palette- yet at some point, that was my buzz?
It doesn't mean that there isn't great music to be found in your little box, but staying in there is certainly going to place a limit on the amount of enjoyable music you're likely to come across.
I'm not sure what my point was... I don't mean to pick on metal musos/fans either, but I'm trying to work out how we decide that 'only (genre) is relevant to us'.
/rant
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I'm a polka fan....
I'm a polka fan.
Yeah, yeah... there's nothing wrong ...
Yeah, yeah... there's nothing wrong with saying 'I'm a polka fan', or liking music from a specific genre, but what I can't relate to is why people decide they only like polka music. Polka people.
I dunno. I gotta lay off the crack ;-)
My friends call me "Dot". Huh huh ...
My friends call me "Dot".
Huh huh geddit? Geddit?
just kidding. i have no friends.
(grinning) Aww come on- don't be a sad ...
(grinning) Aww come on- don't be a sad panda. There's plenty 'o friendly polka people out there.
What is a polka anyway? I don't think I've ever heard one before... hang on, will this end up being like that time I searched for 'My Humps' after dragstrip said it was officially one of the worst songs of all time?
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I'm not really in it for the right ...
I'm not really in it for the right reasons... I mean, it used to be about the music, now it's just about the image and the wild polka parties.
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...24-hour-polka-people......
...24-hour-polka-people...
I reckon 'Ob-La-Di' sounds a bit like ...
I reckon 'Ob-La-Di' sounds a bit like polka, although it was supposedly Paul's attempt at ska!
Um, yeah. I throw around the buzzwords ...
Um, yeah. I throw around the buzzwords "youth tribe" when people get to talking about this. Basically the idea that it's comforting and normal for adolescents struggling with identity / transition from kid to adult / etc. to latch on to both a) a cool looking crowd and b) some guidelines for what you have to do to belong somewhere. Then again, I'm not sure it's all about that, because for some people you dive right in to some scene or another in your early 20s or whatever.
The only other thing I'd add is that people often seem to be on crack. Nah, is that so often the ones making the music aren't the ones who are all "one genre for me thanks!" They may be writing in a genre, but it doesn't mean that's all they like, that they're anti other kinds of music, etc.
/the ones making the music aren't the ...
/the ones making the music aren't the ones who are all "one genre for me thanks!" They may be writing in a genre, but it doesn't mean that's all they like
Sure, I get ya, tons of musicians do that- it's just seems a little unnatural/unnecessary, if you know what I mean. You don't have to limit yourself for the sake of establishing your fanbase- there are globally successful cross-genre bands around who have proven that you can mix it up while still attracting loyal fans... I dunno. I've had a few goes at writing this reply, and I honestly don't know what I think anymore!
Oh, the only point I was trying to make ...
Oh, the only point I was trying to make is it's more often the fans who are single minded about what they should listen to, how they should dress, etc. if they like a certain artist or band. The people actually making the music happily listen to whatever they like.
Sure, people should try to be free in what they write, and second guessing the scope of your audience's interests seems really lame. Maybe on the flipside I found it liberating to realise my music doesn't have to reflect my listening habits!
I guess to pick up on what Ben's ...
I guess to pick up on what Ben's saying down there... the songwriting process is where it's at, but it can be very deliberate, or fluid, or elusive, depending on the method you use.
EG If you're a dub musician, and suddenly a high quality idea for an epic rock song jumps into your head- in all likelihood you'll do nothing with that idea because you simply don't enjoy writing for the genre... but sometimes in the early stages of songwriting, your ideas are very 'pure'; as basic as a simple melody. Medium and interpretation will play their part in determining which genre your simple idea will most closely resemble as it evolves- like what your instrument is, your skill level, how you use it to interpret the idea, how your band may interpret it, how the listener interprets it, how a record company interprets it, how the listener interprets it... y'know?
Just to clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong or less fulfilling about writing specifically for genres you happen to enjoy, it's all about what makes you the happiest and that'll be different for anyone. Maybe I'm personally feeling a little boxed for some reason lately, I dunno...
//rant
Vaguely on cue (well, a couple of days ...
Vaguely on cue (well, a couple of days too late), I ended up at an Opeth interview while trying to find some information on a British folk singer called Linda Perhacs. Seems Opeth's singer / lyricist / front man is really enthused about her album and other psych and folk stuff of the period.
Fucking faggot.
;)
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Just to make it 100% clear, that mock ...
Just to make it 100% clear, that mock homo-hating jab was in reference to grim_entropy on here, who seems to think it's only OK to listen to black metal, unlike his big influence, Opeth.
HAH! Nice one... don't you find it ...
HAH! Nice one... don't you find it strange though, how a musician will take input from a variety of different sources, but usually produce a fairly consistent or recognizably coherent output?. I know it's always about what makes a musician happiest in the end, and I'm not saying I'm any different, but what's with the incongruence between what we listen to and what we end up writing?
(I got to use incongruence in a sentence LOL!)
//Fucking ...
//Fucking faggot.
Hahahahahahahahaha.... ah jet that's gold. Would have been better if you hadn't copped out and put the disclaimer tho ;)
Good call. I remember way back when I ...
Good call. I remember way back when I lived in NZ, everything seemed to be rigidly categorised (maybe it was just me; I dunno). If you were into rawk you would never be seen dead singing a hip-hop song, owning a classical album or liking a jazz artist. And somehow that music taste dictated what you wore and who your friends were.
I missed out on years' worth of good music because it didn't fit my preconception of what my taste in music was. My girlfriend at the time had to forcibly introduce me to Ronny Jordan; I'd heard of him but "acid jazz" wasn't something that fit into my musical niche so I'd never bothered to listen, but now he's one of my favourite guitarists. Similarly, we avoided bands like AC/DC for a while, because, having never really listened to them, it was decided that they were more metal than rock, and if you listened to metal you were a metaller and metallers were long-haired hoons in black t-shirts and old Holdens - surely they couldn't be regular, nice people.
It was very liberating to discover that you could listen to the Sex Pistols without having to put safety pins through your ears; Tchaikovsky without having to wear a bow tie and inch-thick glasses; Johnny Cash without having to join the oldies down at the RSA; Iron Maiden without having to be a Westie; and the Sugarhill Gang without having to pretend to be a homeboy.
It seems things have changed but still stay the same. It looks like the music industry still crams bands and music into certain niches but the audience is becoming less and less constrained in their listening.
So, I admit it! These days I like a whole range of stuff like Robert Randolph, Gorillaz, Miles Davis, Tom Petty, the Finn Brothers, Spitz, Che Fu, Lenine, James Brown, U2, Lightnin' Hopkins, Velvet Revolver, Erykah Badu and Yo-Yo Ma - all at the same time!
/It was very liberating to discover ...
/It was very liberating to discover that you could listen to the Sex Pistols without having to put safety pins through your ears;
That's what I'm getting at.
//It was very liberating to discover ...
//It was very liberating to discover that you could listen to the Sex Pistols without having to put safety pins through your ears;
isn't it kind of the same thing????
Yes, very droll ;-)...
Yes, very droll ;-)
yes this raises the highley iritating ...
yes this raises the highley iritating issue of, say someone moves into your social circle and they have that whole cliche going on, for example they are pretty much only into nu-metal but they exude so much self rightousness about how 'importent' 'there' music is that you often feel like going all Richard Loe on them with a good eye gouging. Usually these people are young white angry young men WTF.
/rant
I sometimes wonder if i should try harder to broaden my own listening... i do own a digable planets album tho haha (nobody say - token) ladybug a voice like honey on toast.
//are /young white angry /young ...
//are /young white angry /young men
ha excellant.. i was foaming at the mouth
//someone moves into your social circle ...
//someone moves into your social circle
I don't really understand how that would happen. Surely they'd be outcasts until they were prepared to don a pair of chucks and listen to babyshambles? ;)
//I sometimes wonder if i should try harder to broaden my own listening...
I don't think there's any problem if you're not particularly interested in other genres. Often I hear a hiphop or jazz or bubblegum pop act (*coff* curse that catchy veronicas track) I really like, but I still wouldn't buy the album. Occasionally I hear a song that does prompt me to buy the album, but in general I think 90% of my playlist has a pretty narrow scope. Actually, it doesn't even necessarily fit inside a particular genre, but it just seems very strongly themed; there are bands that I can point to and say "that's Heather-music".
I think the issue is just that it's self-defeating and a little bit silly to scorn music just because someone mentioned it in the same breath as a genre that doesn't fit your window.
Mind you, I reckon maybe it's to do with personality types that are attracted to certain music. Definitely the earnest idealism of youth is a factor, but also there seem to be specific bugbears associated with different genres. For example, hiphop fans seem to let other genres be, but they'll rip into their own for not sufficiently keeping it real. Recently someone proved the stereotype that heavy metal kids will actively denigrate all genres except their own, & that seems to be linked to a hatred of conformity, amongst other things. Indie kids think that "mainstream" is a dirty word and it seems to be mainly because of the selling-out angle. Fans of tweedly weedly guitar music scorn pop and anything made with a computer because of the perceived lack of skill.
Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone that likes any of those particular genres, but I think often a person's choice of music to hate says a lot more about them than the music they like.
//I don't really understand how that ...
//I don't really understand how that would happen. Surely they'd be outcasts until they were prepared to don a pair of chucks and listen to babyshambles? ;)
family, relatives, inlaws - your cousins boyfriend for example.
you got to come accross someone with a good record collection to help you out... almost ten years ago now i worked in an office with a cat that had all the records that became my staple music listening for well the next ten years. grant-lee buffaloe, afghan whigs etc. etc. before that i was listening to crowded house and u2
but he had lots of Guru and tricky and and dope on plastic stuff as well it was great
"up against the wall mother fucker" hahaha
//relatives Aaaahh. Well, I guess ...
//relatives
Aaaahh. Well, I guess you just be as friendly as you can muster, then every time he says something negative, get an especially sunny friend to beam enthusiastically and say "good for you!! so how long have you been into new metal?".
//you got to come accross someone with a good record collection to help you out...
Yeah, I do have plenty of friends with lots of different tastes; moreover, the moment that bFM started feeling kinda samey Alt TV started up, and they have some awesome stuff that I've never seen anywhere else.
Also, I'm not complaining at all; and possibly other people might look at my list and think it's quite diverse, because the factors that define my choices aren't immediately obvious. For me, expanding my horizons is entirely an interest thing rather than a mandatory task. Everybody has a particular taste, which evolves only gradually, so just as long as you're open to new music when you encounter it then I think that's great. Oh, I guess perhaps if you're a musician it's probably good to force yourself to listen to a lot of different stuff just for the sake of innovation.
/general I think 90% of my playlist has ...
/general I think 90% of my playlist has a pretty narrow scope. Actually, it doesn't even necessarily fit inside a particular genre, but it just seems very strongly themed; there are bands that I can point to and say "that's Heather-music".
I'm with you- I mean, as fan, I think in general I could say "I'm a rock fan" and that would happen to be true for 90% of the music I’ve collected... but then again it's a gigantic genre in the first place, covering a heck of a lot of ground. Like you I find that these days the music I end up collecting has appealed to me because I simply like what I hear -not by virtue of what pigeonhole it's associated with. But not so long ago, the music I collected was screened first by the pigeonhole I'd associated myself with. Lately I’ve been ‘discovering’ a lot of bands/artists that were simply not on my radar at the time, which is hugely frustrating when I learn that some of them have broken up or are simply thought of as passé by now… ;-)
I've often thought that it's the same ...
I've often thought that it's the same things in music that attracts me across any number of genre's
from the sundays to Guru... good vocal (sound or delivery) bit of melancholi or attitude good feel
it's all songwriting maaan
/it's all songwriting maaan LOL... ...
/it's all songwriting maaan
LOL... totally, songwriting and product placement ;-)
Wish I could but when I think of ...
Wish I could but when I think of adults heavily into music, I can't help but think of the old guy who lives next to my aunty with his elderly mother who sits in his room listening to teckno. So there's a bit of disdain there. Never been more scared of getting old when I see people like that. It isn't pretty. Adults behaving like pre-adults simply isn't right, hard to finger why exactly. (But then being 26, I still like to listen music.....damn)
I mean when your old your defined by how productive you are, you're supposed to get involved with things like that, your role in the kids lives, or your work. A giver, not a taker anymore. Play time is inviting similiarly mature people over for a barbie and to talk about sensible things in a matter of fact way. You might then play some Goldenhorse in the background, or some classical guitar music, that is acceptable, something like that. Off topic, sorry. another wank off rant....
bugger...... delete...
bugger...... delete
Metal fans tend to have the most ...
Metal fans tend to have the most boring, conservative, idiotically narrow music tastes. that and hip hop fans (but there's the whole race thing). Metal fans are ussually munters who have NO interest in any other type of music.
back in my teens I used to be into one ...
back in my teens I used to be into one thing and thing only, Flying Nun Dunedin type stuff, yep it was SJF, snaeky feeling, the clean........ Now I look back on that and cringe, talk about missing out. Being young means having a narrow mind, but as you grow older it eventually opens up cause you no longer feel like you have to indetify with whatever your listening to. Then you get old and lose interest in music altogethor.
//Being young means having a narrow ...
//Being young means having a narrow mind, but as you grow older it eventually opens up
So when are you going to grow up then?
//Then you get old and lose interest in ...
//Then you get old and lose interest in music altogethor.//
Really?? How old do you have to be before this happens. My mumand dad are both in their 80's and still enjoy listening to music. Unless of course you mean so old you are dead ... in which case I strongly suspect you lose interest in pretty much everything.
Then again you could just be plain wrong! Fancy that!
well when you get old all that matters ...
well when you get old all that matters is the mortgage, work and getting the kids to school. There's no time and eventualy no inclination to indulge in things like music. Certainly the attachment to it is gone by that stage.
Elaborate on your definition of old, ...
Elaborate on your definition of old, rdor. I think it is just that some people love music, and always will, and to others it is just background noise. I am always really surprised at the number of people who go somewhere, and don't seem to hear whatever is playing on the sound system at the time. I've even experimented with it - played loud jazz, or something else that's a bit different, at work. No comment. Stunning. If I hear something I like, I ask the person who works/lives there, what it is, if I've never heard it before. Make many of my music buying decisions that way too.
I think I was more obsessive or ...
I think I was more obsessive or 'clingy' with my favourite music when I was younger- if that's what you're saying then I'd find it hard to disagree. It doesn't equate to being passionless as you grow older, just that you'll naturally collect more good music/favourite bands as you go and your obsession gets more thinly spread. As for mortagages etc, well all the more reason to enjoy the moments you're able to spend with your favourite music.
//Elaborate on your definition of ...
//Elaborate on your definition of old//
25+
But nobody wants to hear me whing about that anymore.
But i think maturity means having less emotion, being somwhat detached, grown up, so musical appreciation diminishes, because to ge involved in something like that is basically childish/escapist and you grow out of that, you have to. Just look at the last generation, in the 60's and they were listening to Hendrix, now they're listening cheesy Irish folk while they eat dinner.
/Just look at the last generation, in ...
/Just look at the last generation, in the 60's and they were listening to Hendrix, now they're listening cheesy Irish folk while they eat dinner.
I knew those Radiohead, Beth Orton, Metallica and The Darkness CDs that my parents have were just for show...
// But i think maturity means having ...
// But i think maturity means having less emotion,
// being somwhat detached, grown up, so musical
// appreciation diminishes,
Or the exact opposite. I think musical appreciation *grows* as you get older, so you don't get 'wowed' by every half-decent tune that comes along. When you're younger, your knowledge of music is far narrower, hence your ability to be won over by 'new' music. Some of the stuff I used to listen to religiously when I was teen now sounds twee and second-rate (although, a good hunk of it is still sounds as good as when I first got into it).
// because to ge involved
// in something like that is basically childish/escapist
// and you grow out of that, you have to.
that's closer to the truth, I think. As a kid you take the whole musical experience on board. The singer's singing about your emotions. It's your lovelife he/she's angsting about. This music is special to you and the grownups just don't get it.
Man, are there going to be some sheepish-looking ex-Linkin Park fans in years to come.
// Just look at the last generation, in the 60's and they were
// listening to Hendrix, now they're listening cheesy Irish folk while they eat dinner.
A lot of them were listening to cheesy (although not necesarly Irish) folk in the 60s and 70s too. The Seekers - now there was a band. Early Bob Dylan? The Clancy Brothers?
(Interesting first google hit on 'The Seekers' too...)
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haw haw haw, that's a good response!...
haw haw haw, that's a good response!
bah! can someone close that tag?...
bah! can someone close that tag?
after 'just don't get it'....
after 'just don't get it'.
DUDE! Don't diss linkin park, man! ...
DUDE! Don't diss linkin park, man! I'm serious!
arse, I was just about to go listen to ...
arse, I was just about to go listen to Linkin Park, but it's not in my iTunes. Because of PEER PRESSURE! I'm SO copying it back on tomorrow!
That peer pressure was in your best ...
That peer pressure was in your best interests, Heather!
Just for interest's sake, here's the ...
Just for interest's sake, here's the top 10 US singles for the year 1969, (the same year Jimi headlined Woodstock)...
1. Aquarius - Let The Sunshine In - 5th Dimension
2. Dizzy - Tommy Roe
3. Sugar, Sugar - The Archies
4. Crimson And Clover - Tommy James & Shondells
5. Crystal Blue Persuasion - Tommy James & The Shondells
6. Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye - Steam
7. Take A Letter Maria - R.B. Greaves
8. Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations
9. Time Of The Season - The Zombies
10. Good Morning Starshine - Oliver
and the top 10 UK singles chart...
1. Frank Sinatra - My Way
2. Jane Birkin & Serge Gainsbourg - Je T'Aime Moi Non Plus
3. Dean Martin - Gentle On My Mind
4. The Rolling Stones - Honky Tonk Women
5. Robin Gibb - Saved By The Bell
6. Karen Young - Nobody's Child
7. The Beatles - Get Back
8. Donald Peers - Please Don't Go
9. Bobby Gentry - I'll Never Fall In Love Again
10. Tommy Roe - Dizzy
...and the top 10 singles for the UK for the entire 60s...
1 - The Beatles - She Loves You
2 - The Beatles - I Want To Hold Your Hand
3 - Ken Dodd - Tears
4 - The Beatles - Can't Buy Me Love
5 - The Beatles - I Feel Fine
6 - Seekers - The Carnival Is Over
7 - The Beatles - Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out
8 - Englebert Humperdinck - Release Me
9 - Elvis Presley - It's Now Or Never
10 - Tom Jones - Green Green Grass Of Home
so, it might be more accurate to say ...
so, it might be more accurate to say that the 60s generation was, in fact, listening to The Beatles, Tommy James & the Shondells, Tom Jones and Dean Martin.
//5. Robin Gibb - Saved By The ...
//5. Robin Gibb - Saved By The Bell
If that's the 1960s, then I really want the moisturiser that Mark-Paul Gosselaar is using.
bahahahahaha. I seem to recollect a ...
bahahahahaha. I seem to recollect a very similar version of this argument...
rdor is actually lucy sam??
Bite your tongue, limegreen! I will not ...
Bite your tongue, limegreen! I will not have that sort of slander in my house.