Okay this is a deliberately provocative which is probably even an exaggeration but I thought it might time for a good old fashioned reality check.
Lets face many of the artists making in the New Zealand Music scene really are not terribly good. Often they are neither creative, technically competent, interesting, although sometimes they are entertaining. I mean how many bad jangly rock bands can one country produce before it gets a little bland (I am not going to name any names in this post!).
I mean in the cold hard light of day is New Zealand music really that good. I would suggest no. As my friends and I laugh about (as we regularly go to gigs dutifully every weekend supporting local bands) maybe New Zealand Music is just as bad as the shit music we get from overseas.
More to the point remains the oft-lamented question why don’t make more Kiwi musicians really make it big or even huge overseas. Many reasons are often presented but no-one ever suggests the most obvious answer... that the music just isn’t good enough to make it in a place where you don’t have that good old fashioned kiwi nostalgia going for you.
But actually this isn’t really the point of my post…because most commercial music is crap and album sales are certainly not a marker of quality music.
Still I can’t help feeling a bit bitter spending twenty dollars plus every weekend and indeed often during the week too, to not hear better music.
But I am not entirely negative I am going to make maybe a few suggestions for how maybe some NZ Musicians could improve their music.
1. Try to be a little bit more creative
2. Try to spend actually more than five minutes writing a song both lyrically and musically. Now I am not suggesting everyone does Tool like song marathons but a bit of effort would be nice. That way the listener may enjoy it a bit more. This applies even to genres like Punk where actually you can write decent songs. For example old punk bands like Minor Threat and the Dead Kennedy’s actually wrote really good music. Similarly, there is no rule saying the backing tracks to rap songs need to be totally boring (apologies to some here).
3. Go to other bands gigs even out of your genre maybe you’ll get some good ideas.
4. Learn your instrument s better and try to self-improve both individually and as a group. Just because you have a single out doesn’t mean you should stop trying to get better and lessons or musical learning needs to stop.
Hey I know this all sounds like hard work, but don’t you think the average music loving punter (like my self deserves it)?
P.S. I’m interested to get some opinions on this….and not just trite counte –examples because I certainly know they exist. In fact there are many good kiwi bands just buried among the rubbish….and some rubbish that maybe could potentially be better.
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dude, you're about three years too ...
dude, you're about three years too late.
[ http://www.nzmusic.com/topic.cfm?i=3796 ]
phew... for a splie second I thought it ...
phew... for a splie second I thought it was gonna be 'that' thread again and I'd have to burn myself. again.
Well I will admit I didnt go trawling ...
Well I will admit I didnt go trawling through the old posts before I wrote the former.
However, I think I said things particularly near the end that were not even touched on previously...if you read my post all the way???
Of course. You're complaining about a ...
Of course. You're complaining about a bunch of crap/mediocre gigs, but how else do you expect bands to get good at performing? You're holding up internationally successful music as a yardstick, but the only stuff that gets international success is that stuff that's either the top of the field, or has some serious marketing dollars behind it. Do you reckon that the quality of every wee gig right throughout America or the UK is world class?
Sure, it'd be great if the proportion of "quality" music in NZ was higher than it is, but I think your expectations may be unrealistic. I know there's massive swathes of shit music out there, & by your tool marathons suggestion I suspect you might be going to too many of the wrong kind of gigs, but I imagine it's the same here as it is anywhere. Personally I'm pretty excited about the increase in kiwi bands that I've really loved over the last 12 months, maybe it's a taste thing, or not overextending my going-out threshhold, I don't know.
But I think your implication that NZ music isn't "good" enough to get world famous is naive (particularly with regards to the value of marketing - crazy frog, anyone?), and partly I think it's an insult to the handful of kiwi bands that you and I both know really are worth their salt. Genuinely shit bands don't generally get that popular, and if they do it's a couple of tracks on the BNets before fading into obscurity. Even the pappy commercial bands that get popular are made up of musicians that play and perform well.
with you on the above Heather .. it ...
with you on the above Heather .. it takes alot of hard work and a long time before bands really gel and start to turn out a truely accomplished sound / performance some have a great base to build on others just shouldn't really try .. but all in all they're part of a pool of talent that's out there giving it a bash .. and good on em .. even if there are plenty of times you just wish you were somewhere else ..
Oh and I should say, that applies to ...
Oh and I should say, that applies to every country in the world I'm sure ...
I don't get why overseas success is ...
I don't get why overseas success is such a big deal to NZ musicians, or New Zealanders in general. It's kinda like short man syndrome, in a way. We should just accept that we're small & beautiful.
I mean, the enormous UK music scene is responsible for unleashing Crazy Frog onto the world (currently charting at No. 5 in the NZ charts).
Whatever credibility there was in charting in the UK has gone forever.
[ http://www.rianz.org.nz/rianz/chart.asp ]
/(currently charting at No. 5 in the NZ ...
/(currently charting at No. 5 in the NZ charts).
AND No. 10, too... gar!
//Genuinely shit bands don't generally ...
//Genuinely shit bands don't generally get that popular, and if they do it's a couple of tracks on the BNets before fading into obscurity.
Oh, also it may be pertinent to clarify that I know there are also some really good bands that get exposure on the bnets before fading into obscurity.
// Lets face many of the artists making ...
// Lets face many of the artists making [it] in the New Zealand Music scene really are not terribly good.
... these bands that aren't terribly good probably (maybe) just have a good manager or the right contacts, or heaps of cash, or their own tech gears. Or all of these things. I dread to think how many truly awesome, shy and broke musicians are sitting in their lounge rooms with great ideas, wondering how to their music noticed, and don't know who to ask for help in the publicity area. I may get shot for this (no really), but I know for a fact, there is a mainstream radio station (name and location not supplied) that takes $5000 worth of coke to get a band on high rotation for a week or two, to get the ball rolling, and get their crap bands noticed. We live in a sick and twisted world where kissing arse and heaps of cash makes things happen. And quickly. Of course there are honest bands that work hard for years to get to the some point... good thing is, they tend to be professional musicians who do it for love... and tend not to fade away from the public eye as easily, and have more staying power in the long term.
// New Zealand Music is just as bad as the shit music we get from overseas.
We get heaps of crap music and crap bands in Aussie too... Although, I haven't seen a bad kiwi musician in Melbourne yet, after being here for 5 years. Musicians that relocate for music have already developed skills to pay the bills, before making the scary move out of the comfort zone and home country. There's a lot of reasons why Kiwi musos leave home and fly around the world to share their music.
There will always be bad musicians and good musicians everywhere. That's how we can tell the difference. People learning to play... people that forced themselves into the wrong profession that generally rely on the image and play jangley, boring, bad music... these people don't know how to progess musically and improve. They think they sound great already, why try and get better?.... but they look cool and know the right people, and sometimes, that's all this breed of musicain cares about... leaving us with shitty music.
I dunno... Im just spouting shit now.
[ external link ]
So it's a general 'pull ya socks up' ...
So it's a general 'pull ya socks up' to NZ music? There's nothing controversial in saying that, bro- although I wouldn't have used Tool as an example of epic songcraft... but that's beside the point.
Creativity is important, but it isn't a universal unit of measure for how 'good' a country's music is. Some brilliant songs have the dumbest little hooks in them- that get stuck in your head and won't get out, that are easy for a happy, drunken crowd to sing along to... and some inevitably find their way through to mainstream radio and into the charts.
The point is that it's fine to encourage musicians to push themselves creatively- but most people (myself included) will enjoy music for more simple reasons. It simply moves us. I mean, great music can be very black & white. Sometimes the desire to be creatively innovative will end up contriving simpler, more effective musical ideas.
(Just my £0.02)
//simpler, more effective musical ...
//simpler, more effective musical ideas.
So true bro... some of the best pop songs are written quickly based around one hooky chorus (artists have, and do write and recorded big hits ,sometimes as fillers, in a single afternoon)... and are very simple and catchy.
Simply music is more digestable for an average punter, who doesn't want thinking music.. they just wanna dance and have fun.
[ http://www.kroadqueens.com ]
Oh man, thanks, I was thinking I was ...
Oh man, thanks, I was thinking I was *(&( for a while there, but I was like, "Man, I'll never be *(&(, I might be &(#@, but never *(&(!"
Thanks so much for confirming my suspicions.
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In response I will admit a lot of ...
In response
I will admit a lot of truth in what has been said above in particular that the naff bands put out a single or whatever and then fadeaway...thank god.
And I agree that you have to start somewhere
But I really believe that lots of "musicians" really dont attempt to improve themselves and sound just as bad (or the same) as they did a yeayr or even two years ago. Surely there is truth here even for the better of the bunch.
As for dissing tool dont display musical ignorance.If you dont like prog/alt metal fine. But if you cant appreciate the intricacies of writing songs in strange time signatures, which must take a long time to work out and sound good, strange guitar inversions amd deeply textured sound..then you are ignorant of composition and should leave it alone. It helps to see past the surface qualities of the music. I suggest getting a later tool album and trying to count to it.... oh my good its not 4/4!!! lol
Other examples of great music from genres you might like I could easily give as I am an eclectic fellow.......obviously the list would go on and on.
That said it wasnt my intention to talk specifics rather generalities
Yeah but then as long as you're making ...
Yeah but then as long as you're making out that Tool are really complicated and amazing....
They stick predominantly to a pentatonic scale, but with an added 2nd so it's kinda halway between pentatonic and natural minor. They hardly EVER deviate from this, in all of their albums (Undertow, Opiate, Aenima, Lateralus, Salival is a live album with covers included that don't count).
Almost every song (possibly every single song) is in the key of D, which allows for a.) maximum use of Maynard's amazing range and b.) the guitarist, who has frequently pointed out that he's really nothing particularly amazing, to use Drop D powerchords, i.e. single fingers to play 5th chords.
The time signature thing is a total cop out - it makes your music sound complicated without having any real musical understanding be necessary. Adding in a certain numbr of beats is much easier than almost any other way of giving your song or riff a point of difference from the norm. Try it - it's not that hard.
Harmonically, Tool rely on a handful of techniques, but the one they (and metal bands the world over) favour is staying in the same chord at all times. This makes the music sound dark and heavy, because different chords give a different emotion, and if you want the song's emotion to stay dark and evil, the easy option (see a theme here?) is to just sit in the root position of the minor scales, and use flatted 2nds and minor 3rds in your melodies against this root chord.
Maynard's vocal ability is indeed amazing, but his tendency to sit on the fifth and base his melodies around that at all times is yet another favoured technique of the band.
The thing is, Tool do have their "own" sound, so they can keep making these albums, but they're really not bringing anything to the table that they hadn't already done on Aenima, and their sound is so heavily defined ow that they really can't do anything but the techniques stated above (among others). This in itself does not make them a "bad" band, but keep a little perspective when singing their praises.
Also, the lyrics are really terrible 6th form goth poetry, but that's another story.
BTW, 'reply to this post', top right ...
BTW, 'reply to this post', top right hand corner.
/you are ignorant of composition and should leave it alone.
Ummm... right. I thought this may have been where you coming from to begin with, actually.
So, better NZ music is about more groove-deprived time signatures with 30 seconds of token dumb riff in the middle of 8 minutes of echo swamped musical algebra textbook? Older Tool was better, they cut to the chase quicker, they had groove, better riffs, the chord changes made more sense, more importantly there were big anthemic choruses... now it's like pulling teeth. Honestly. Don't. Get. It. Anymore. But hey, whatever works for you.
If people hadn't already done it, I ...
If people hadn't already done it, I would have been like "ha! Tool! What about some other comparisons?" although I own a couple of their albums.
As a very unmusical person, I really liked your deconstruction of a Tool song, White Rhino, it made lots of sense. You've obviously listened to them, which is what makes your argument better than other people who've just dismissed Tool out of hand, so good on you.
I agree - good summary of Tool, White ...
I agree - good summary of Tool, White Rhino.
Another summary - "bunch of songs in D about anuses."
//But if you cant appreciate the ...
//But if you cant appreciate the intricacies of writing songs in strange time signatures, which must take a long time to work out and sound good,
Ever seen Syd Barret songs written out in sheet music? up to 2 time signature changes per bar in places and all he needed was acid and mandrax.
yeh laugh it up but i was trying not to ...
yeh laugh it up but i was trying not to offend lol
And sure songs can be simple and ...
And sure songs can be simple and effective catchy and that is great
But its always nice to play in time, not be too drunk or whatever and sing roughly in key
Hasn't stopped The Rolling Stones from ...
Hasn't stopped The Rolling Stones from announcing European Tour dates.
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I guess its called international ...
I guess its called international commercial music for a reason alot of it sounds generic and has no reference to a local place, probly to maximize sales with a "international sound" .
If i listened to alot of music on radio/tv without any prier knowledge id have no clue as what country they were from in some cases, in this international media age peoples influences are not so much local now as international anyway, dam ive used my quota of the word international today...... Another thing ive always wondered is why a non american singers voice can sound so american, I must admit even my singing voice does tend to sound like this a bit at times and I was born in uk then lived most my life here... maybe its just me getting paranoid ear.... or listening to too many of my buddy hollie records hours on end.....:)
[ http://www.krackatoa.com ]
a) there is no such thing as "New ...
a) there is no such thing as "New Zealand music"
b) who are you to tell other people how to write music?
c) have you been overseas and seen what the local bands playing in pubs in other countries are like?
d) Who are these bands that play "New Zealand Music" that suck?
e) Have you ever thought that maybe you are going to the wrong gigs?
f) have you considered that maybe you don't understand or "get" the music you are hearing?
I agree with everything barring a) ...
I agree with everything barring a) There is no such thing as "new zealand music."
Whilst you might think I'll pull out the tried and true "but it comes from nu zuld it MUST be nu zuld musik," I shall titillate and mildly surprise you by saying something completely different. If I had to define it, I would say the dunedin jangly sound is pretty much what really comes to mind immediately before anything else. Thats ours. And also, you can always tell if an album is from NZ as it is usually not particularly well-recorded, using overseas recordings as a yard stick. The only exception is when an artist in NZ has recorded themselves.
All my opinion, don't hit me too hard.
New Zealand music (music produced in ...
New Zealand music (music produced in NZ) is NOT that special in a global scene anymore. Iv'e been around the scene since '78 (very vibrant music days) and in my opinion there is little local music of interest that gets the deserved exposure. Of course each to his own and one mans meat is another mans poison etc.
Sounds to me like alot of people are ...
Sounds to me like alot of people are going to gigs, standing down the back with arms folded and thinking "go on... impress me with your prowess". Which isn't what it should be all about.
Are people actually "hearing" music? ... or are they just listening to the surface sounds and analysing it?
Musicianship isn't the most important thing about making good music, and there are plenty of examples (think of them yourself). Of course, if your music isn't saying anything and you can't play your instrument either, it's just noise.
It's so easy to whinge.
I challenge the starter of this post to start another just as elaborate, saying something positive and uplifting about NZ music. Go on. It can be done.
You've just gotta use your brain.
//Sounds to me like alot of people are ...
//Sounds to me like alot of people are going to gigs, standing down the back with arms folded and thinking "go on... impress me with your prowess". Which isn't what it should be all about.
Are people actually "hearing" music? ... or are they just listening to the surface sounds and analysing it?
Haha so true, I'm very guilty of that. But I'd say the difference is in the band, do they make you want to listen and anaylse or make you feel the music? Sounds pretty hippy but I'm sure you know what I mean? A wasted gig is the one where you go up to the drummer and ask how he kept the beat through all those signature changes instead of asking him to drink a lot of beer with you. By gum, I think everyone who plays an instrument is profoundly guilty of over-anaylsing music.
//Sounds to me like alot of people are ...
//Sounds to me like alot of people are going to gigs, standing down the back with arms folded and thinking "go on... impress me with your prowess".
That just reminds me of pretentious threatened musos at the Kings Arms, sussing out competition, and looking for any sign of musical weakness. I haven't seen a crowd like that since I left NZ.... in Melbourne, for some reason, crowds are much more willing to show appreciation... and even... *gasp* dance!
[ http://www.kroadqueens.com ]
That was a very good analysis by the ...
That was a very good analysis by the way White Rhino. But you omitted mentioning THE best part of the band.....the drummer!! (the only in the group who truly is master of his instrument).
True, sometimes you do here a band and dont like them dont get them or whatever.. then maybe years later you do.
I tihnk it is a very interesting point that only a very small proportion of artists make it to a second or third album (or past the EP). I wonder how this compares with overseas. and what the proportion is. I guess in soomeways to get to album 2/3 is some kind of marker of having some kind of durability which indicates genuine quality./appeal.
Well looks like no one is gonna agree with me.. maybe I am a deluded unhappy fool. Peace out.
the drummer is the worst part of the ...
the drummer is the worst part of the band. Technical brilliance can also mean stale and boring.
seeing something unexpected, some sort of live spark, something special is what makes me enjoy live music. Seeing Tool live (seen em twice) is like watching TV with the CD turned up loud. There is no emotional connection between band and audience, they are detached and have no real love for their audience.
Seriously...who are these bands that you go and watch that make you make these sweeping judgements about all music from New Zealand?
NZCynic, I'm not strictly disagreeing ...
NZCynic, I'm not strictly disagreeing with you (purely for the application of sturgeon's revelation, linky from disasteradio), but I think because you can only live in one place at one time you don't have much basis for comparison. I imagine you'd be complaining about the local scene if you were living in, say, Ireland or Canada as well. I read your original post as coming from someone that's taken the government/mainstream schtick about rah rah kiwi music at face value, then been disappointed to find out that there are still a whole stack of two-year-old bands playing 5-for-5's every month aren't that shit-hot (or perhaps a bunch of plastic rock debacles with some success, shit lyrics and no hooks). And there have been a few times that I've seen a crappy band, then saw them two years later to discover they'd gotten really good.
AND FWIW I wasn't dissing tool, just to me it's like - if that's what you appreciate then you're not really going to enjoy going to cheap punk gigs every second weekend.
Also, I'm with Foetusboy about not caring so much whether bands get international recognition or not, and that it shouldn't be the ultimate proof of goodness. I'm just glad I get to go to some awesome shows. Ultimately I think the biggest issue I had with your topic was the suggestion that kiwis only support kiwi musicians because they're kiwis. I think aside from the people that rave about their boyfriend's band or their local school effort, most people that go to gigs regularly (well, all the ones that I know at least) are pretty blunt about who they like and who they don't.
Hey NZcynic, click on the link ...
Hey NZcynic, click on the link below.
Douchebag.
[ http://www.yhbtm.com ]
That site is genius. I love the preps ...
That site is genius. I love the preps in the Linkin Park video, the way their faces fall. Linkin Park is a roller coaster!
One last thing: onya for getting ...
One last thing: onya for getting everyone fired up. We don't get that many lively discussions round these parts any more.
Ha... interesting link. A friend of ...
Ha... interesting link.
A friend of mine recently said "Remember in the 90's when there was all this good music around.. . where is it ?"
And I said: "Dude, turn off your TV and radio and get on the internet and FIND stuff.... so much good music out there. It's just how you find it that changes"
FYI ...
FYI Dumbass.
www.newayhome.com
www.myspace.com/tomorrowcomesinsilence
Check out those bands, and shut up.
New Way Home was ruling at Safari ...
New Way Home was ruling at Safari Lounge the other night. Sound problems? Didn't matter to them. ..they just came on and destroyed the place anyway. Good stuff.
thanks Heather. Its good to get people ...
thanks Heather.
Its good to get people fired up now and then and maybe to question complacency
It's also good to stop being so ...
It's also good to stop being so complacent and learn to use 'reply to post' too...
It's a good point about songwriting ...
It's a good point about songwriting quality.
There was a band I used to see play live a fair bit. They had a bit ofa following, had a couple of NZOA grants, but weren't national megastars (and still aren't).
Every time I saw them play, they'd usually play the same songs (though with a varied set order), so I got to know their repertoire well. They were a few really excellent songs that were a pleasure to listen to every time, but also a lot of shit ones - either all shit, or with, say, a great chorus but shit verses.
Now, in the beginning it seemed obvious to me that the audience responded differently to different songs. The shittier ones tended to be the ones where people had their toilet breaks, drink refills, or wandered off to talk with their mates. I thought the band might have figured this out too and make some changes, but they didn't. In fact, in that time the only song that I noticed any changes to was possibly the worst one of them all, and all they'd done with that was change a couple of the lyrics around.
It seems that if someone in a band is going to be critical of themselves, it's going to be about stuff like getting a guitar solo mucked up or some problem with the PA - stuff that an average audience member wouldn't notice or be very bothered about.
One thing that came out of the Resonate panels last year (where the British music industry guys gave their advice to NZ), was that the most important thing for a band to make it big is great songs.
Criticism of songs seems to be perceived as "hating" or an attempt to destory art, when in actual fact, it can be useful and can help make a song genuinely better.
//There was a band I used to see play ...
//There was a band I used to see play live a fair bit. They had a bit ofa following, had a couple of NZOA grants, but weren't national megastars (and still aren't).
Oh come on Robyn, I think you're selling Primal Devastation a bit shor there.
i didn't read through all the comments ...
i didn't read through all the comments so i don't know if anyone's already said this or not, but if you look at all the bands today they all cite NZ bands as their influences... i personally don't think much of neil finn and dave dobbyn, like their music's ok to listen to but i can think of heaps of other much better songwriters
Good one Jesus. Good one....
Good one Jesus.
Good one.
Um. No, you MUST have been trying to ...
Um. No, you MUST have been trying to start an argument. Thats the only explanation
Basically, some music is **** - no ...
Basically, some music is **** - no matter where it comes from.
Some music is sheer brilliance.
The fun's discovering the brilliant stuff - and honestly, I think we have more than our fair share of brilliance in this wonderful country.
// There will always be bad musicians ...
// There will always be bad musicians and good musicians everywhere. That's how we can tell the difference.
[ http://www.kroadqueens.com ]
We all seem tobe forgetting the ...
We all seem tobe forgetting the horrible old boys network the new zealand music industry is - Dave Dobbyn still getting NZ on air funding? - what the hellis that.
And don't use Kiwi FM as a bench mark whatever you do - they are so stuck on their idea on what the new zealand scene should sound like - they block everything out.
You want good NZ bands - go to myspace and hunt around - don't go to 5 for 5 gigs - where the tool cover bands play - and most importantly, don't complain about NZ bands, cuz there's no way the people who fund them are listening nor do they care what other people think is good.
//Lets face many of the artists making ...
//Lets face many of the artists making in the New Zealand Music scene really are not terribly good. Often they are neither creative, technically competent, interesting, although sometimes they are entertaining. I mean how many bad jangly rock bands can one country produce before it gets a little bland (I am not going to name any names in this post!).
I could name quite a few bands who don't write jangly songs. This is just laziness on your part that you haven't got off your arse to look for something you like perhaps??
There are a number of technically proficient players out there if that is your thing.
// maybe New Zealand Music is just as bad as the shit music we get from overseas.
We get a lot of shit music and some good music from overseas, good and shit is subjective, one thing I'd say is not subjective is that we don't get the myriad of pub bands and vanity projects from overseas that we can see here alongside the more successful acts. I'd guess our 'good vs shit", whichever way you want to measure it is approx the same as anywhere.
// the music just isn’t good enough to make it in a place where you don’t have that good old fashioned kiwi nostalgia going for you.
This can be a reason I guess but it'd be one of many. Most of it would come down to $$s and representation. Maybe just the fact that there are so many bands out there trying to chase that huge success and statistically you are more likely to be struck by lightning than hit it real big whereever you are from............. kinda makes it a hard thing to prove in any case....
//Still I can’t help feeling a bit bitter spending twenty dollars plus every weekend and indeed often during the week too, to not hear better music.
There is fuck all of a critical tradition in NZ. I don't know if it is something to do with the soundbyte moment nature things are being presented with in general but I just don't see too much in the way of good weighty criticism here. Maybe there is an opportuniny for yourself to do something about this, start a blogspot all about the bands you are spending $20 at a time to go and see??
//3. Go to other bands gigs even out of your genre maybe you’ll get some good ideas.
Agreed
//4. Learn your instrument s better and try to self-improve both individually and as a group. Just because you have a single out doesn’t mean you should stop trying to get better and lessons or musical learning needs to stop.
I kinda see a point in what you're saying. there are too many morons out there who buy into the whole "If I learn to play more proficiently it'll kill the spontaneity" line but there is a flipside to that as a proficient guitarist (ie. fairly capable of doing anything Yngwie, Petrucci or Vai can do) I have to say the whole shred thing churned out a lot of horrendous shit. A chops heavy player with terrible songs can be as bad to listen to as a good songwriter who sucks as a muso.
wow ishtar, can you do ...
wow ishtar, can you do Vai/Malmsteen/Satriani type shit? cool
Do you have big and/or greasy curly hair?