Hey ya,
I was thinking about something J-Po posted in another forum, re: how good sound in isolation is different to good sound in a band setting.
For example- you buy a new distortion pedal in the shop cause it sounds huge. Then when you try to use it in your band, you can't hear it cut through enough. So you buy a bigger amp, but then you can't hear your bassplayer anymore, so he buys a bigger amp, etc etc etc....
I remember I used to drag my bandmates into the shop with me whenever I wanted to get new gear, so that I at least had their ears to sound-off against.
I dunno- I think a lot of musicians purchase gear based on how it sounds in isolation, then are let down buy how the gear sounds with the rest of their band playing along. Terms like 'cut through the mix' are meaningless without asking what your mix is first. What are you trying to cut through? Where do you want it to cut? By how much?
Sometimes gear that sounds sh!t by itself ends up sounding mega in a band setting. A friend of mine has bought some dirt cheap, chinese made, plasticky junk distortion pedals in the last few days which I would have completely dismissed as entry-level rubbish ...and in someways it is, but that's become part of the charm. One of them (an overdrive) lets out the most amazing feedback squeals, and the tone is so thin & weedy, but to be honest I haven't heard any pedal do 'thin and weedy' quite as well as this one!
What do you reckon? Feel like selling that Mesa stack yet?
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heh, like buying clothes - bring 'em ...
heh, like buying clothes - bring 'em home and they go with nothing and suddenly look arse.
when i was getting into music there was a big emphasis on anyone can play guitar and every guitar can be played. that was confirmed by the first instruments i played - my first bass was a Fender copy and it has the best action i've ever experienced with a bass. and the best all-over neck harmonics. i recently got a vintage Burns bass - it blew my mind - i can't help but think what my fender-copy would sound like if it had the quality wood resonance of the Burns. it would be the best bass in the world.
i try to judge every instrument on how it works during a loud gig - i try to ignore brandnames but have experienced a certain sound from Peavy amps, another sound from Jansens ... but i actually hate new gear. on the whole it just doesn't sound warm to me. it's like a new instrument needs a year's work out until it gets a proper sustain and a broader tone. initially new gear (especially new amps) sounds clinical to me.
trying out gear during a gig is imperative, definitely. or even trying out gear during your regular practice session is a must-do. sometimes the best gear just won't work with your current band set up, it won't cut through - it's gotta be tried alongside before you buy.
// trying out gear during a gig is ...
// trying out gear during a gig is imperative
i have recently discovered that seeing if you can actually lift something before you buy it is also important.
/initially new gear (especially new ...
/initially new gear (especially new amps) sounds clinical to me.
When I was looking for a replacement speaker for my amp, I did quite a bit of (too much) web research on what would suit it the best, and I came across these speakers that had been 'pre-aged', as in they've had low frequency sound played through them for a few hours at high volume, which loosens them up and makes them sounds warmer/less clinical straight out of the box.
So, basically it's like buying new old speakers, for a much higher price than genuinely old speakers.
/seeing if you can actually lift ...
/seeing if you can actually lift something before you buy it
HAH! Another good reason to go gear shopping with your band mates...
I agree with the comments about playing ...
I agree with the comments about playing in isolation. Things also sound different within the band compared to what the audience hears. I suppose you need to develop a group ear instead of an ear just for your individual playing.
I reckon it comes more down to the way you play. I think people worry about their 'sound' way too much. If your getting lost in the mix then just play 'bigger'.
I've sat in an audience listening to a drummer playing my drums and thought to myself that my kit sounded weak and dull. The next drummer changed my view entirely. It was not the kit. It was all about the drummer. That's not to say good gear is not important, but a shitty violin player is going to sound just as bad playing a Srat compared to playing a cheap Yamaha. I think some people see gear as a musical skill, I think it is just a crutch.
One pet hate of mine is people fiddling for ages onstage to get things 'sounding right'. Play with what you got!
i agree with those last two things - ...
i agree with those last two things - fiddling on stage and playing with what you got. they can be the same thing - you start out, at a gig (or even a practise), first few songs battle with the environment, the low ceiling, bodies in the room, desk engineer fiddles - that battle is so good.
i love that battle.
a few songs might fall by the wayside but sooner or later you + band + sound come through the other side and everyone knows it.
that's fiddling on stage - fiddling in isolation of the stage noise i can't quite get, because i haven't done it enough - but say someone like Tristan HDU does a lot of onstage fiddling, he used to be slow at it, say 10 years ago, but now in Kahu (solo T) there's a hell of a lot of fiddling, but it's completely unnoticeable as he's great at it, fast, and gets amazing sounds out of the reach of non-fiddlers.
/I think some people see gear as a ...
/I think some people see gear as a musical skill, I think it is just a crutch...
Kinda like, if music was the journey, then your gear is like the car you drive... or the wheelbarrow you push... depends what vehicle the journey needs. Some people will climb into their brand new Mercedez Benz S500 just to go down the road for a paper. If my gear was a car, it'd be a Skoda S100- not so good for big journeys, but if you can get there without breaking down or overheating, the feeling of elation is priceless.
/I think some people see gear as a ...
/I think some people see gear as a musical skill, I think it is just a crutch...
i think gear is actually the legs you walk on too make your music... no gear no music eh!
i think the only reason people turn there noses up at good gear is the cost $ or they get defensive because they think someone is looking down on there gear...
i think anyone in any chosen field - rowing, mountain climbing whatever, the more committed or dedicated they are the better there gear will be. You don't see olympic athletes swimming without goggles 'oh i don't need that shit'
i've come too see people with good gear as being just really into what they are doing and i think thats cool as opposed to saying good gear what a c**t/snob
agree, its about learning to play as an ...
agree, its about learning to play as an ensemble, thinking of the whole. I left a band because the guitar player/singer said - his words - 'I like to hear an enormous wash of guitar, lots of my singing and a tiny pitta pat of drums'. I was playing the bass....had to say well fuck ya, I thought I was in a band...
Taking the ensemble thing a bit further, its also about the part writing. ie, not having the key board playing low patches and eating up the sonic space that the bass and low part of the kick drum require. And not piling up mushy distored guitar on top of more mushy distorted guitar...and wanting the vocal distorted, and the bass, and if youre stuck in the 90's , the drums as well...
And ultimatly , its learning how to get the best sound out of any instrument, and voice for that matter. clear and focused tone. 'Bigger'gets mistaken for 'louder', clarity comes from good technique and true mastery of any instrument.
Just cracks me up seeing guitar players playing fast flashy licks with 8 pedals and a tiny limp dick whiney tone coming out of a marshall...sounding like a dog taking a piss in a tin.
All right I'll bite, whether it is ...
All right I'll bite, whether it is aimed at me or not. You can do shitloads with a crappy little marshall and a bunch of pedals provided, in my opinion if you
(A) DON'T SCOOP MIDS.
(B) avoid metal zones
(C) keep a close eye on capacitance and replace patch leads as soon as they fuck out
and (D) get a decent regulated adaptor running it all wit a lot of headroom- don't use a shitty PSA 240 to run 8 pedals.
My view if you have eight pedals (or nine in my case) be able to justify having them on the board. I use valvestates cause they're cheap and I'm still saving for a decent jcm 800, there is one upside to the two twin combos, they are effectively solid state so although an ugly palette to start from they are completely transparent. I can make them sound like a lot of different things. take a big fuck off tube amp and it sounds pretty much like it sounds.
They lack the compression of a tube amp so I use a compressor. to add a bit more low mid I use an enhancer set so the amp growls under distortion. I set the overdrive for a fat warm sound but keep the hell away from distortions and fuzzes cause it ain't what I'm looking for, I want more 'feel' over my sound I wanna be able to get a lot of nuance out of it. By that token though I don't want it clinical so I use a boss overdrive/ distortion with the mix 8/2 in the favour of the overdrive. Its gritty but it breathes. I use a noise suppressor around these pedals though its there for a mute as much as anything as I've got three guitars in 2 different tunings the third one with a D tuna which I do use for a couple of songs. I want silent and quick plugging in but a boss LS3 would suck too much tone from the chain.
I've got a tremolo I use it in two songs, not at every gig, but it gets used. I have a chorus ensemble that I use for around half the clean stuff the other half is pretty much naked of FX, I have a pitch shifter I use for an octaver- I could lose this if needed- but I do use it for the ending to 'Abandoned' I put in on the board cause its 'cleaner' than my octave pedal. I would prefer the dirtiness of my octave but even in bypass it is a tone thief. I own an old boss dm2 delay which kicks ass, its analogue so there's none of that digital pinginess, but like the octave it is too much of a capacitance problem so I use a short delay from a PS3 pitch shift/delay. It sounds pingy but as I'm only using delay for about two minutes in a total set I can live with it. Finally I have a boss reverb set very low. I use it as a splitter box as much as anything and pretty much follow a rule that you find a sound you think is really good then dial it back a little. Overall it is hardly noticable but I'd know if it was turned off when it should be on.
As a rule of thumb I don't use a shitload of FX, the less you use the more people notice when you do actually use them. I almost never put any modulation on a distorted tone, occasionally the octave or reverb but thats it.
For the bag I'm going for this works, Dave's drums are tuned low, he plays a lot more on the drums than the cymbals and his kit goes down to a second floor tom, if he was using a highly tuned kit going up to a piccolo snare it wouldn't match. Andrew's bass rig is less hi-fi sounding than Greg's is and with a five string we have a lot of bottom end at our disposal. I think Andrew coming in makes us sound a lot more rock and roll,
Just a few random observations.
[ http://www.guitargeek.com ]
and, common sense really, but when ...
and, common sense really, but when possible arrange to take the amp/ guitar...etc home the night before you practice, noodle with it, than use it with the band the next day.
I borrowed a vox Valvetronix from Go west music a while back and loved a handful of its presets, particularly the Jerry Cantrell, Brian May and EVH emulations but found it couldn't do a few fundamental things I wanted it to. better to pay the $50 deposit, which I spent on picks when I returned it, and suss out its limitations than to piss away close to $3000 on something that won't do what you want.
argh second try at writing something... ...
argh second try at writing something... i think real good sound will always sound good but you might just need to make space for it... do something drastic like getting the drummer to not play the hi-hats!
shitty sounds are the future haha cause you never know when they might 'work'
some of my best combinations here
[ http://music.myspace.com/ventureelectric ]
I love the sound you get Benjamin- that ...
I love the sound you get Benjamin- that little vox of yours goes so well with the Rickenbacker. It's not a 'huge' sound, not in the wall-o-marshalls sense, but it's got it's own space in the mix & it's just so luscious and warm... *drool*
Jessie from Looma gets some pretty cool sounds too- again, his tones seem to occupy a certain sonic space where it's not treading on the bass guitar or drums too much. I've heard someone describe his sound as having a 'lazerbeam-like' quality...
I've always liked the overdriven bass tone that Jason Lowenstein gets, and that's partly because Lou Barlow's treble-rich Gretsch give Jason's grungy basslines all the room they need.
So yeah, I guess a lot of my favourite bands seem to be considerate of eachother's sonic space, rather than competing for it.
Yes the individual sounds always change ...
Yes the individual sounds always change in a mix - be it recoring or jamming in a practice room. Its called the masking effect. Certain frequencies cancel out each other when heard as a whole. The most amazing solo patches or tones sometimes get lost when in competition with other instruments. It can help to create tones and sounds while you are jammimg with others, so you can hear in context the differences you make. But after having said all this there is the simple phrase "if it sounds right, its must be right" Cheers