i can think of intellectual music, that is dry and un-emotional. the best stuff though is the intellectual stuff that is so intellectual that it ends up being highly emotional. i reckon Eno at his best falls into this category. some fractal stuff as well - i had the good fortune to live with a music theory student who was composing music with random numbers - good grief most of it was plain awful, but some of it was super intense.

A number of people do music with no emotional interest in it at all. They tend to be focussed solely on establishing a process, applying the process, and listening to the results. I've read composers who want their music to be exciting (only) in the same way that calculus is exciting.

A lot of the same do not release their music in a form that other people can listen to, as their only reason for doing it is to satisfy their own interest/curiosity. I don't know if anyone who operates like this releases CDs in runs of more than, say, 500, and probably a lot opt for the free-on-the-web approach. I know of two or three shows in Australia that would play music this purely experimental on the radio, but not sure of any in New Zealand. Actually, maybe one on Radio Active.

Maybe you were talking about listening though, rdor.

don't get me wrong I like what I like as much as anyone. It's just realising that not matter how good Marvins songs are, he just being a giant wanker. And so am I by listening to it and imagining me doing it and getting all the ladies to like me. The total emotional indulgence of (good) music probably explains why more men are more heavily into music, both in its listening and creation of, than women. We're a less mature and our minds rovolve totally around ego, self love. Kind of embarrasing really.

//verbal masturbation is one of your favourite digs//

so true but I never drew any line.

becuase I'd rather restrict it to music for discussions sake. The topic could be 'Is human creativity wank?" but that's too general. Your right in that all unneccesary words and expressions humans make are based on ego, the freudian super ego - the male one anyway, that kind of thing, like what I'm typing right now, I want you to think I really perceptive and intelligent, it's all toss. Also pointing it out in other things/other people makes me feel better.

and cite

I have no creative experiences, I s'pose you'll jump in there and say "well how would you know what people think?" to which I say I just know. I know they know too. It's in the music, in the purpose, music is an expression of the human ego. Let's discuss that and not trade jibes.

blah self-love and ego - that others hear you and think things about you is not the point of creating music. sure, it's important and sure, music is communication, but it's not why people feel the urge to make music. many people feel like they can't stay sane or live without the tunes in their head. i've got friends who write at least a song a week, and if they weren't able to do that they would go insane. i'm not like that, but my thing is when i hear a tune in my head, my joy is getting it out from my head into a separate existence, independent from me. i wanna do the tune in my head justice when i give birth to it. like a woman, duh.

sure it's nice if people hear it, but i don't make music for others, and for many people, they don't make music for other people, they do it and i do it because it pleases me to make something, and make it well when it comes out.

there's an ego thing in there, but it doesn't depend on other people. there's a thing in creativity that doesn't depend on communication to others, but the buzz kinda comes from the bringing about of something. it just feels good to create, it's that simple. i mean, heaps of artists were reviled when they made stuff (Van Gogh being a famous example) but often they keep on doing it, because they are driven to, though the product they create might not put food on the table or get them groupies. creativity is a drive, i don't think the object is to please or seduce others. it just feels good when it happens. easy. foetusboy's Schopenhauer quote below nails it. feels good = might be about pleasing yourself, but creativity seems so tied to living and being human and all that = not a guilt thing.

//personally i'd like you to explain this 'ego' concept in a little more detail//

the ego, sense of power, affirmation, is the mental process that causes endorphins to be released in the brain. We want endorphins, like a drug. We are addicted to our egos like we are drugs. Self indulgence, power over others, power to make others feel the way you do, to like you, regard from others, getting girls to like you (reprodctive sucess), all are hotwires to endorphins.

...as for the feelgood factor - rdor, when you do well in school or do something nice for someone else your brain also releases endorphins, so by your reasoning it follows that helping people out is also an ugly, petty ego-trip.

So does that mean that we should scorn those that do good turns for others, since they're indulging their animalistic addiction to feeling good?

Why should stuff that makes you feel good be "pathetic"? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it's a good thing to feel good sometimes?

Oops, meant to say, if music's the same, then this is all just as irrelevant. It would also be as easy to argue that we're motivated by a fear of spiders or something... has the same "I just know" factor to it.

er, repost

//...as for the feelgood factor - rdor, when you do well in school or do something nice for someone else your brain also releases endorphins, so by your reasoning it follows that helping people out is also an ugly, petty ego-trip.//

I think every non essential action or thought is driven by brain chemistry and the desire for a state of comfort and satisfaction. People are 'good' only because it gives them a buzz, they want to feel like they are a good person. But as for music, yeah you're a smart cookie, endorphins probably aren't the primary cause, they'd be more associted with short term responses to pleasure, like after a run, sex, or food. There are probably a combination of hormones involved in making one feel liked and/or respected, or powerful in the long term. And the music itself must stimulate our brains, illiciting these feelings. Otherwise why listen to it?

music is like the male peacock displaying his feathers to the female , "look at me, look at what I can do, don't you want me now?" Illuvetheclean has some points, but why exactly would anyone need to express anything creatively ? we don't just have feelings for no reason.

That was a great read. I love hearing people talk about their music, particularly when they put the technical stuff aside.

yeah, good art is like that. a good book/painting/photo bring a world of their own into being. had a rave about 'Dune' in the weekend that made me think this - but not so to my companion who didn't get past the first book. 'Star Wars' was like that, but then Lucas started filling in all the details - it worked so much better when the individual watching it could do it for themselves. it seemed infinite then, but he reduced it by explaining stuff.

yeah, the process and struggle is just as appealing as the end product, even if it's a feature of the end product. i'm so tempted to start raving about Aristotle - he nailed all this - most people know about his theories of catharsis, but he proposed a whole lot of other aspects to creation - resolving disparate elements into unities (even if the resolving doesn't happen), blahdy blahdy blah ...

(lightbulb)

dantheman, I think you just nailed it, pretty much by saying the same thing as rdor - most people make music as an expression of emotion. Difference is that rdor seems to think that emotions are ugly shallow things that should be quashed, whereas you're suggesting - and I agree - that that's the great thing about music.

If someone writes a song about how they love getting the girls, or nobody knows the trouble they've seen (whether it's because they were brought up poverty-stricken and abused, or because their parents grounded them) - so what? That's great! And if people can relate, then that's double-great.

Ok that was a little dismissive.

I've bought some new cds lately- 'Our Shadows Will Remain' by Joseph Arthur, and 'The Back Room' by Editors.

Heard one track from each on XFM, my ears pricked up, I searched for & downloaded some samples to whet my appetite, then felt absolutely compelled to own the albums for myself. Joseph Arthur is an absolute genius, incredibly talented singer and songwriter, damn, the whole package. Editors have a track called 'Bullets' that's just gourgeous, and the album is just as brilliant- I could listen to it again and again and never ever stop nodding my head in rhythmn & enjoyment & agreement & uncontrollably, really- cause that's the effect good music has on me, you know, it's the perfect language- no translation process necessary- music plays, we respond emotionally to it. I love music to bits.

Translation: Consumer sees product and spends income to acquire product. Capitalist society functions as normal.

//but music especially because it has no reason to exist other than to make us foeel good about oursleves

You're the one coming up with the hypothesis, I think it's up to you to do the proving or otherwise

Hang on, you're the one making the assertions, the onus is on you to back up what you're putting forward. You're either ignorant of the variety of contemporary music or you're being wilfully contrary.

I was going to write a huge list of names of people making music at the moment that I was sure you'd never heard of and ask you to confirm or deny how they match your theory, but that's probably being a bit contrary too. Suffice to say, you don't seem interested in actively seeking out music and listening to new things, so I don't see why you can assert things about the state of modern music with such authority.

If you are interested, I will list some artists that I don't think fit your assumption that "modern music is all gratification, ego expression of feelings" and try to explain why.

//Have you heard the last Killing Joke album?//

Near perfect example, amost as good as Joy Division. Melancholic self pity DOES make people feel good, perhaps even more ego driven than 'happy' music will, I mean how clever is to acknowledge the morbid side of things, to show others that you are *aware* and and self conciouse and so deep becuase of that. Worthy of respect. You also get to wallow in it and gain satisfaction form making others feel like shit for a moment, if in fact the msuic is good enough to have that effect.