I reckon Tom's doing a pretty fucking awesome job of answering your questions Mike, and your not doing the responses justice by your pathetic answers. however one thing i am interested in finding out from tom is why 'just like everybody else' is on tge, imho it was crap the first time it was released and doesn't fit on tge AT ALL, either musically or chronologically. I know Shihad have said a lot about how they wrote a shitload of songs for tge and it was a great songwriting period (the absolutely fantasitc b-sides to pacifier are a testimony to that), if so why were some of the new songs from the 98 general electric sessions not on tge instead of 'just like...' ? not trying to be rude (like i think mike is a bit) but i've always wondered. personally just to express a viewpoint on what's already been said in this discussion, i fucking love Killjoy, its my favourite album ever, i wish more people knew about it. but i kinda don't at the same time, cos its great to belong to a unique club of people who have it and love it (what i would do for it on vinyl...... hmmmm) and know that it makes them feel the same way it makes me feel. its raw and its honest and it sounds like Shihad sweated blood over it. yes the fish album was a change stylistically and having read tom's mammoth response (thanks a lot man!) i understand why it was made. i don't love it as much as killjoy but its still fricking awesome. first time i saw shihad was at the james cab in 1998 on the blue light tour, i remember being totally blown away by lala land/home again/yr head is a rock and buying fish the very next day. totally agree that it needs more bottom end though. as far as live concerts go i wish shihad would play more of their earlier stuff however i'm not so naive as to believe this is as much of a reality as i would like - fact is, they've picked up a lot of fans with tge (thanks to pacifier as much as the awesome production - which is not a bad thing - interestingly enough when i first heard pacifier i predicted that it could be the 'venus' of the year 2000 - thankfully it was a popular song but its fucking awesome that Shihad retained their credibility where the feelers did not), anyway back to the point, tge songs scream to be heard live and they deserveto be heard by fans who bought tge. i do think shihad could play for longer and play more stuff of killjoy/churn - i.e debs and you again and great but i'd fucking pay a lot of money to hear bitter/gimme gimme/get up (!!! what a closer that could be!), bone orcahrd, stations.. screwtop. i won't forget bdo 99 in the mosh standing next to someone who kept screaming 'screwtop, screwtop!!!' at the top of his lungs after every song.. its a special feeling to know songs from the early shihad catalogue and identify with them. so tom maybe in the future a bit more early stuff added to the live sets? i know theres a shitload of people out there who'd appreciate it so much. as for the future - i want shihad to make an asbolute mindfuck of a next record and blow skyhigh in the US - everyone knows they deserve it and when you've got shit like staind, bizkit, linkin park, creed coming out of the US Shihad deserve to go over there and rock the fucking soulless ass out of them. i'm fucking proud of what shihad have done and so thankful for what they've given me and i wish them all the best for the future. tom thanks for answering those questions and if you wanna reply to this then thats cool and i'll write back as well. mike hunt please be a bit more respectful and take the time to write and put the effort in as tom obviously has - is there any more evidence of shihad's committal to their fans than this? fucking brilliant. rock hard. Chris. bishdafish@hotmail.com

Ooooooo- watch out there, Mike, you'll have the purists on your case next! ;)

what a debate! it has been with much interest that ive read the posts so far (is it still continuing??). i was referred to this by a friend regarding the comment of 'antangonisim between the bands after hlah released 'berlin stench' and 'jellybag' as their own'. ok well, toms right, kudos to shihad, 'berlin stench' was recorded by both hlah and shihad during their european tour. both bands are credited in the (cassette only) copies except it wasnt released and neither did it say 'hlah', purely 'the berlin stench'. also 'jellybag' which was one of the songs on 'berlin stench' was re-recorded for hlah's 'double yer strength' and was a combined effort between jon and booga mainly. yes it should have been credited unfortunately it wasnt, i guess we owe you guys some apra tom, 15$ is in the mail. my thoughts on 'berlin stench' are that im happy it just saw the light of day in the form of about 100 cassettes. it is a total snapshot of 3 weeks above the knaack club in east berlin that when i listen to it now i can still smell the place, hear the music from the three clubs below and remember how hungry we were.
back to the debate though. theres some really interesting comments being passed back and forth. as someone thats followed shihad from playing 'metallica' covers at the 'clarendon' in wellington to touring/competing with, loathing, loving them. im feeling a burning desire to put my two cents worth in. really though, mike hunt has his opinions and is entitled to them, rightly or wrongly. in this case though his opinions have piqued an interest in mr larkin which has resulted in the debate posted here. i think tom has rigourously defended each comment where possibly no defence was needed. i guess it all comes down to free speach on both sides. i have enjoyed reading the debate so far and am curious as to whether it is to be continued....

mmmm......yes

TOMBLE - 5
MIKE HUNT - 2

the debate thus far has been very illuminating (no responsibility taken for spelling by the way) geez mike how cliche is the -i-like-your-old-stuff-better-than-your-new-stuff-angle? why do cats get so uptight when a band takes a turn stylisticly, whats the point of shihad or any one making the same album twice if you dig killjoy then you have killjoy and you can listen to it as many times as you want? slagging someone cause they had a certain haircut pair of shoes etc.. is really lame - if you were going out with someone on a date you might brush your teeth so your breath dosn't stink - is this selling your mouth out? i can't see any shame in wanting to look good in a photo. Mike you seem to be holding on to some rather dogmatic religious viewpoints, whats hard whats heavy what you can and can't look like if you want to be "real".
i'd be interested to hear tom's reply on the live show just for insights sake - i couldn't care less if 3 out of 4 cabinets were for show - if tom put some hair product in before he went on stage does that mean he has sold out - hello! i saw the auckland town hall show and shiite it changed my life, lights and banter aside the music was goood!! if there was a rock olympics shihad would definatly be getting the gold medal.
mike - at the start you didn't think you'd be thrashing it out with tom did you hahahahahaha
i reckon if you want to throw shit then at least throw it at someone that really deserves it - like zed - dickheads!!

WHOA!!!!!!ok i've just read the entire TOM-MIKE debate (i haven't been here in a while, anyone miss me?:-)) and dammit it was so long my eyes are bloody watering!
Ok i Have to congratulate Tom, on the MASSIVE posts! they've really taught me a lot about the band, that i thought i already knew a lot about. Absolutely Amazing....and great writing. tHAnks for the oppurtunity.
Mike has toned things down a lot, and hasnt been here as much (or so it seems). I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad thing. I'm hoping he's learnt more about the band, and therefore will not bag out bands for petty reasons again....(i guess the whole arguement is pretty much questioning how petty the "i like your old stuff better than your new stuff" thing is) Anyway it's nice to see a friendly arguement going, b/c in a way the other posts just became a massive bitchfight and Mike wasn't going to listen to anyone else anyway.....so i'm hoping this has been a good thing for him.
I dont know, anyway it's been enlightening, i can say that much.
BTW I really like the fish c.d, and despite what people say it's still one of my favourite albums. The guys are awesome, what can i say? I'm looking forward tothe new album, some Melbourne Tours(when its done) and perhaps an install?! haha....(some ppl at gasslight were telling me how much they love you guys)
One final Question... ... though this is irrelevant to the topic.....does anyone know the name of the supergrass/johnny greenwood side project... ... i think they were called a team (not sure on that one) and i heard them once on the radio but never again.....a shame b/c they were fucking awesome! can anyone help me? clancy_vandal@hotmail.com
Well Ta-ta for now... ... ... luv PeAcHy!:-)
ps: Mike's Top 5's were in good taste, i must say.

hook line and sinker everytime with the zed kid's aye - although thats another thread so enough and on with the shihad stuff!!

i think what i (& i hope sum other ppl) have learned from the tom/mike debate is not to go messing with the 'had (not that i would anyway!) ive got alla their albums & i dont think any of them are better than the others, but then, thats just my opinion ay?!

Here's something else-

You can't seperate the musicians from the music they create. What ever's going on in their lives, how old they are, what's most important to them... affects EVERYTHING. Even small things like how much midrange they have in their guitar sound, through to the songs they write and the way they're recorded.
So you may have liked 'old' Shihad. It seems to me that you might be in the same place you were 10 years ago, while the rest of the world's moved on. I don't blame you, sometimes I wish I could re-live the past, and I frequently do by putting on Killjoy or Churn and cranking it up. I accept that Shihad need to move on, and it is unreasonable and quite pathetic to lash them for growing up. They are always gonna do what they want to do, I respect them for that. They won't go back.
I rememeber when I was at Massey, the 'Had played at The Albert with Baconfoot. The 'Had were playing a few songs from the as yet unreleased Fish album, like Home Again and Leo Song. There were, even then, long-haired, tatooed, leather-jacket, black-jeans wearing old-school Shihad fans, screaming out for Black Sabbath covers, as well as the Devolve stuff... I'll never forget my mate starting up a come-back chant: "MORE NEW STUFF!!"

In other words, I look forward to the next album every time.

Mike, if you don't get it by now, whats left? What has yet to be covered?

-With respect

slayer still rulz heh- heheh he heheh he heh.

are you stalking me jimi? its kinda creepy how you're always hot my tail after every comment i make! i'm not sucking up to anyone jimbo. i just reply to posts in a similar tone to however they're posted, you may have noticed it was tomble who chilled out when i replied to his requests to start another thread when he thought i wouldn't. and so the debate (not argument) has carried on in a reletivly civil manner. as for me "getting caned", i'm not really seeing your point there. whether or not the thread continues is up to tomble, i'll keep on as long as he does.

question jimi: if i said something you agreed with, would you acknowledge me as being right or would you disagree? i'm really curious. i'm not gonna get into another bitchmatch/ insult competition with you but you are becoming a bit of a "chatroom nazi" dude.

jimi jimi jimi. you seem to be devoid of a sense of humour my friend. are you able to detect sarcasm in any of my posts? oh well.
i do get kind of a kick out of the fact i can get a rise out of so many people with just a couple of sentances! especially humerous when they start launching into a bunch pseudo-intellectual dribble! call me a dirty old perv but keep it up hahahahaha! your buddy mikexxxxxxx!

it is easy to laugh something off when you don't understand.

When's Tom gonna answer the live questions, dammit??

yesh....where are those guys?i lost my copy of churn so i went to re-buy it yesterday. WHen at the counter the guy was tellling me how much he loved the album and we were having a jolly old chat about the band. Now what i thought was wierd was that he said "you know, this album is awesome, but this would have to be the first copy of it we have ever sold."
THe c.d store i brought it from is this HUGE jbhifi store in the centre of melb city and probably the biggest Cd store in melbourne. what the hell?!

Also just listening to churn, i see where mike is coming from, but then again it's absolutely rediculous to expect a band never to change their style. I like all their stuff equally....its almost like listening ot each album their a different band. and that's good.

Someone was saying how the general electric is poor lyrically (mike i think) Well i was reading through TGE lyrics last night and i actually thought they were very tongue in cheek and very clever.

Well ta-ta. love the peachster

reading that was awesome....thanks for the insight craig. I'll have to hear your bands out.
Im thinking that mike has realised that shihad have changed for the better and is reconsidering selling the fish album! yesh....wishful thinking,,,no not even that...i don't really care all that much. But Now everyone has seen the different views of people around the band,.....................thanks

shit..where was i when this was happening.

ah well.. seems to late now to comment now but anyway. what is with all this shit about the fish album. I was a bogan/hippie when churn was out, so i like d it. i as less of a bogan when killjoy came out so i loved it. when the fish album came out there was hardley a bogan bone in my body so i loved it.

I did not notice a huge musical change in direction because I and the rest of the world was moving onwards as well. Obviously i noticed fishes poppier tracks but i also noticed the boys got haircuts and started to connect with what was happening with the rest of the world.

What i love and have always loved about the had is that while evolving in an everchanging musical climate they have remained honest in their music and have always kept some of their distintice wellingotn rock sound. If you come from wellington you know wehat i mean.

but first and foremost their songs fucking rule. I don't care if they pull a radiohead and release an ambient dance inspired album because i like most other intelligent people enjoy all types of music and know that good songwriting wins everytime.

I am interested to hear what tom has to say about the "live" comments not becasue i agree with mike but because i know the majority of bands the world over have this problem. One of my saddest moments was seeing radiohead in wellington. Sad???? why, well about 4 months earlier i had seen a tape of a radiohead gig in the U.K on the same tour and had it memorised, well they played song for song the same order and the same stage production and banter as on the video.

While this kinda spoiled the gig for me at the time and really dampned my passion for live gigs i have remained a radiohead fan and continue going to every gig under the sun because i unerstand that bands have ridiculous tour schedules and though they may say "hello wellington" or "you're the best audience we've ever had" it's all part of the show that the majority of the crowd have come to see.

The recent robbie williams gig in wellington was a perfect example of this, every little piece of banter he did in between songs was part of the rehearsed show, He just changed names of cities etc to fit in. when people are paying $100 for a ticket they don't care if he tells other people the same things as long as he makes them feel special like they are the only audience in the world and he want's to sleep with every women in the audience.

I love it when john say's "fucking awesome" cause it is, just like the song it is becomming his "trademark", just like when Paul from brubeck cracks out his "thank you very fuckin much" at the end of every song.

Give the guys credit they are songwriters not comedians, they write songs not banter, how can you expect to hear the best motherfucking songs in the world during a bands 3 month 2456 date tour and also hear brand new original banter, even comedians just repeat the same tied jokes evening after evening on their tours and they get paid to write funny comments. Jon could read the obiturays for all i care I went to the gig to hear some ball busting stadium riffage and beautiful songs. I think Mike got confused and expected to see Chris ROCK not a rock'n'roll show from hell.

I do miss hearing the older tracks at gigs but i find ignorant cunts who say "aw fuck, they didn't play all the fucking b-sides on the debs night out E.P", christ if shihad played everyone of the songs we wanted them to play they would have to play their own 3 day woodstock. however it goes without saying that i would wet my pants if they played bitter or stations on their next tour.

....idea....for shihads next tour.

put a voting form on website for people to vote for the 5 had songs they want to hear most live and then the winning 5 the band could play on their next tour.

anyway.. i hope this thread continues

Keep writing the kick ass songs and I'll keep on coming

hey my friend said that Tom is half Maori
is that true?

um, ok just want to clear something up. change is good. i'm glad shihad changed, otherwise they'd still be that terrible metal band, all bands must evolve. its the way they went that i'm questioning. it would seem moving towards what is popular on radio/tv, what big names you can get on your latest album and what celebs we can hang out with is more important than developing on a sound that i think could have been truly unique.
"the general electric producer has produced other great acts such as...motley crue!!??"...nuff said on that one.
"our latest album is done by the same guy who produced korn, limp bizkit and staind"...um choice guys, can't wait!
someone mentioned radiohead earlier, and i think what they've done is brilliant they could have knocked out another album of fairly straight up pop songs but chose to experiment more and come out with something more challenging that left them open for criticism. it's not perfect by any stretch, sales were down but its still a more honest musical expression.
i pleasently surprised when churn was released. i was and have never been a metal fan (although it would seem some of you thought that). churn had the aggression aspect but in a context i could grasp more than codpieces and leather. then came killjoy a NATURAL step forward from churn. to me the general electric is a step back to the metal years, and what i'm hearing about the new one even more so. i guess we'll just have to wait and see(sic). couple of questions: do think it is possible to make a career from playing music, whilst maintaining integrity? and do you consider music art? feel free to answer.

hey there ho there...
i just read through a majority of those posts and have come to the conclusion that mike, in each of your posts, you dig yourself deeper into your hole....you seem to keep repeating yourself about how "i like the old stuff betta" blah blah....but then you turn around and say "change is good" ??? make up your mind....i think you dont really know what your talking about any more. Tomble fired back pretty impressive comments that answered all your questions.....but you never continued to stand for your cause.....and now you just keep going back to the issue on change!!

now are you actually intending on replying to these posts by furthring your arguement with meaning?? or would you much rather shy away with your foot in your fat ol' mouth??? ;)

I know everyone would be delighted to hear from you....

PeAcE....

"otherwise they'd still be that terrible metal band"
mike hunt

mike, didn't u say that thier music circa killjoy was the best they've made???? cause u'r seeming to imply that if shihad hadn't changed/evolved, they'd be "terrible" shit, u can't come from both sides! its one side or the other not both man.

p.s. im sorry bout calling u a coaksucker, u could be like my best friend for all i know, i disagree with ur opinion, but not u :)

p.p.s where ohh where has jimi gone? im not seenin much of him now :(

jimi.....where are you......?