furthermore:

//It is estimated that seven million people are locked up in "reform through labour" prison camps, where inmates are forced to work up to 16 hours a day, without pay, adequate food or health and safety protection, making a wide range of products that are exported around the world, including to New Zealand

and there's more:

//there isn't freedom of expression// -Helen Clark

//If the Chinese had no compunction in silencing our prime minister, "what does it say about what they do to their own people".// Rod Donald

[ external link ]

yeah she seems considereably more level headed about this than some others, and specifically the fairfax owned media.

but if i may make an example with regards to freedom of expression:
in China they have a strange law with regards to property ownership in that you can only own a piece of realestate for 70 years whereby it will return to government ownership. Now if i'm not mistaken, in New Zealand, if you buy a property it's yours. 'it means forever and that's a mighty long time'. and yet while you may 100% own a house, you have no freedom of expression with what you can do with that property, if you want to renovate, you must seek council approval, and if they aren't into your own plans for your own property for whatever reason they can veto your limited power of expression. strangely chinese have this freedom of expression. don't even get me started in the traffic laws.

i guess if expressing thoughts about the government is more important to you than being able to express your creativity on your own property, then new zealand's a hell of a place to live!

>> i guess if expressing thoughts about the government is more important to you than being able to express your creativity on your own property, then new zealand's a hell of a place to live!

It is both important to me that I can express my thoughts about the government, and that the person who owns the property next to mine can not build something that would effect the value of my property without the proper resource consent. NZ is a hell of a place to live, but only in a good way ^.^

yeah, and with regards to having the 'freedom' to publicallyexpress your thoughts on the goverment:
how cool is that!!
i'd live in a country with untaxed liquor anyday, given the choice,
which reminds i should send my 10 year old down the shop to pick me up some more brewskis,
is that legal? fuck yes! is this freedom?sure!
but is it moral....?
kids need exercise, and it's bound to help her maths.

i'm pretty dumb foaf, but not as shit for brained as you

when Helen Clark claims 'there isn't freedom of expression' she is issuing propaganda to the new zealand people. this is an outright lie in that her wording is specific and all encompassing, being censored on a state owned tv station does show a limit being placed on her personal expression, but that doesn't mean there is no freedom of expression.

within China Beijing is reknown as a place where people love to dsicuss politics, be they for or against the status quo, there is very little restriction on what they do or say as long as it doesn't involve public demonstration, the only significant limits are administered in the media. Obviously the advent of the internet has opened all manner of communication links, and people using applications such as msn/qq/yahoo/icq to discuss all manner of things-politics being one of them. There is nothing done to limit people's freedom of expression in this media, although bulletin boards and in particular chinese language bulletin boards are not a wise place to express anti-government sentiments, but as you can see from this post, there are avenues for 'freedom of expression'.

going back to the bulletin boards, there are penalties for citizens expressing themselves too freely, but

//where inmates are forced to work up to 16 hours a day, without pay, adequate food or health and safety protection

is an exaggeration of these penalties,

and stating that these inmates are

//making a wide range of products that are exported around the world, including to New Zealand

is an untruth, the labour these people are generally involved does not involve exportable commodities,
and regardless of the specifics of various punishments for treason, it's worth remembering that a large number of countries still punish treason with the death penalty, and obviously in a one party system the threshold for what can be considered treason is decidedly stricter. This being done to maintain stability in a country with a massive population and a history littered with collapsed administrations and regression to warlordism.

having said that if we discount the use of the media or demonstration as a mean of personal expression, Chinese citizens have significantly more freedom of expression than new zealanders in realms such as business and personal habits. for example if we look at licencing laws.
there are no licencing laws, bars/ shops what have you, have the freedom to open and close as they see fit (restrictions which have only recently been loosened in new zealand) and sell whatever they like (discounting legislated contraband), whenever they like.

so yes foaf, i do know the difference between editorial content and propaganda.
and yur primeminister's statement 'there isn't freedom of expression in China'
is propaganda in that it is a systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
and more precisely helen clark's statement is a lie in that while there are definite restrictions on expression, it is simply not the case that there is not any freedom of expression
and any english speaking chinese reading these news reports (above)
can clearly see that helen clark, in making this type of hyperbolic statement
is doing herself and the new zealand no favors in the ongoing free trade negotiations.

anything else dumbass?

no, i'm sorry i've been rude, i concede, it was editorial content not propaganda.

they're not masqerading as democracy, why would they want to masqerade as a system where a majority of people can vote a leader in for a second term despite numerous human rights abuses
ie America...there's still people in power serving under Bush, there's still people in power who served under robert (freedom of expression)muldoon.

yeah! viva it indeed.

//which imprisons 000's of people per day for expressing independant thought or criticising the maoist regime

ha ha, bollocks, the government imprisoned the leaders of the cultural revolution back in the '81, and made a point if making formal statments that Mao had been wrong in his actions, 000's of people sam?
get your head out of the media's grip.

//Chinese factorys are appalling sweatshops - people forced to work 100+ hours p/w for only NZ$20 p/w with the workers expected to met a minimum yet harsh daily quota or they would be shipped off at gunpoint and never seen of again.

the Chinese have labour laws in place to limit people working '100+ hours p/w, unfortunately not enough people are well versed enough in these laws to be able to make a stand. these sweatshops are by and large joint venture companies, 50% owned by the likes of converse, nike, adidas. etc. Nike does not ship off its workers at gunpoint.

you believe that adidas sponsors Al Qaeda or JI -big call-unsubstantiable i'm sure.

if we look at this figure $20 p/w
with a bus ticket cost 20c
a bowl of rice 20c
a dvd/cd $1
a 600 ml bottle of beer 30c
a pack of cigarettes 20c

that leaves these workers with relatively more spending power that you have kicking people's asses on the waterfront.

now now rope, im only enforcing the regulations as specified by the client, the biggest problem are UNDERAGE drinkers not the legal ones - teenagers with SFA to do

ha ha, no worries, she also got be a pack of smokes.
little gem.

of course rdor, most of us do. later.

// do you have a life to get back to?

I think someone might want to be a security guard herself.

Yup, Im real intelligent, look at my spelling for proof.
My posts arnt ment to be condescending, sometimes I think some people have the wrong end of the stick, and I havent really told any one off seriously expect for Nana and Mananmana.
So is that enough self-justification? If you want some more I will claim to some degree of "knowledge" on some issues, wether this is "better" or even useful is a moot point indeed.

CTU has been busy in China, Im still waiting on final report but some prelim parts Ive seen are very interesting and in some parts eyeopening, particulary with "business ownership" and the workers democratic, yes democratic right to collectivise. An appaling abbrev may be,
Workers take vote on "trade union" if +50%, then Employer funds State run Union.
Sort of National Awards for those old enough too remember.
Also Conditions and terms of Employment where "better" than ours if you are preparded to use the comparitive Domestic Spending criteria.
Which shows again just how badly 20 years of New Right Eco's has fucked this joint up.

Who would work in the mines though?How many die a year Rope?

Also vast swathes of Manchuria are still polluted with 1934 invasion Armaments including Chemical Weapons, in particular Mustard gas. Maybe Japan should get the bill for cleanup?
Oops forgot their an ally now...

Tibet is inexcusable, however "our side" has very little room to preach on such things.

This Religious persucution of Falung gong etc is also bollocks.

Rewriting/Ignorance of history is also disgraceful, however for the West to cast stones here is simply too horrendous to argue.

Taiwan, we'll can anyone here spell Cuba?

Is the NZ Media guilty of Anti-China bias?
probably, wether it goes deeper than that is hard too say, given the frankly appaling level of quality in our "Journalists".
Some of the best stuff Ive rerad on China has actually been in Investigate, which will probably kill off any last shread of credibility I have on this site...

So you all take care...

In fact to pontificate further dear R'dor, the main drive of this thread seems to be our collective ability to purchase drugs and individual Property Rights, which is yet another indication on how irrelevant and outdated my priorites/concerns are.

dude it's fair enough that you're feel so strongly in your belief, but from talking to a student last week whose parent's met the pope (not in China obviously) and whose parents do practise mass in China of all places, it seems there is a bit of gulf between the info your getting from the net and reality. just as marijuana is illegal in new zealand you'll find very few people are actually prosected for possession unless it's coupled with other charges. This illegality, merely functions as a means by which search warrents etc can be issued. but in the real scheme of things it's much of muchness, the police have better things to do, and the same is the case over here. There aren't catholic police zoning the neighbourhood. but laws like this are fully functional when coupled with more sinister crimes. in the past this persecution was the case, but obviously nowadays the police have more horrific concerns to contend with, all i can say to you brother foaf, is don't believe everything you read. i mean your telling me about the place i live, and though i really don't want to give the impression of being some kind of head in ass wanker (which i know i am doing-fuck it all), there's just so much bullshit spread in the west about this place that i really feel the need to offer an alternative perspective. i'll have another talk to this student during the weekend to see if i can gauge with a little more accuracy specifics of how widespread this persecution really is. But having just had my cousin's catholic school orchestra come over here to perform at the beijing music festival(there setlist including a number of christian numbers), i'm i can tell you that this government really leaves alot to be desired in terms of vigilantly maintaining these laws....stop being so gullible bro.

it's not a case of how i or anyone else chooses to interpret the semantics of this phrase or any other, it's simply a case of how much you believe the world functions in absolutes.

//Also Conditions and terms of Employment where "better" than ours if you are preparded to use the comparitive Domestic Spending criteria.//

ok I don't see how 16 hours days are good, and I 'd rather have cheaper consumer goods, electronics, cars etc than cheaper food or other esentials, but then thats good for me cause I can afford plenty of food anyway.....

There is no freedom of religion in China. For instance if you're a catholic you can only register with the state sanctioned Patriotic church and you are not allowed to recognize the Pope as the leader of your faith.

Now it might sound great to have Jehova's Witnesses chucked in jail where they're forced to make soccer balls 20 horus a day just for knocking on your door and doing a bit of preaching but I don't think anyone should have the right to regulate what persoal belief structures are available to the community.

Hi again Rope. You might like to look athe the wikipedia link below for a quick overview. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not true.

[ external link ]

that's quite interesting stuff foaf, definitely worth taking into account the difference between the CCP's actual policies and their enforcement of policies and lack thereof. As it says above:

//In spite of the law, unregistered religious activity continues to flourish.

cos there definitely is a tendency in China towards tokenistic lawmaking, with regards to priacy this is also particulary evident. but the fa lun gong is definitely considered a real threat for whatever reasons, but at the same time things are changing so rapidly here that it's hard to keep track. The government passed a new bill on March 1 2005 increasing religious freedoms, but again it would seem there's still a long way to go, but considering the CCP initially banned religion entirely, and reading the wikipedia's rundown of the stance on contraception is understandable in keeping in line with the one child policy which is arguably in everyone's best interest. considering how much the chinese love procreation.

i obviously have no intention of disputing any of these sources

just exaggerations like this:

//There is no freedom of religion in China

//make soccer balls 20 horus a day just for knocking on your door and doing a bit of preaching

and honestly foaf, tell me that this is not the best punishment for jehova's witnesses knocking on your door and preaching- new zealand could learn a thing or two there; )

all i'm saying is that unlike many other countries in the dark 'age of terrorism' china is and has been for the last 20 years attempting to make amend, derestrict, progress and open up, and this is manifesting quite rapidly, and that even if there are still many restrictions on all sorts of things, i think the media could give a far more accurate representation of the picture if they focussed on the increasing liberalisation rather than the leftover draconianism. and helen clark especially is in a position to do this if she wants a good bilateral reltionship.
thanks for the info!

you mean them building that railway line over the mountains?