Has this made the news in NZ?
Ugly, ugly politics going on over in the states at the moment (ok, they're always ugly politics...)
Bush presided over 152 executions in his time as governor of Texas, yet in this highly publicised case he wants to 'err on the side of life'? WTF?
I dunno... what do you believe? Politically or otherwise?
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As Texas governor, Mr Bush signed a law ...
As Texas governor, Mr Bush signed a law in 1999 that allows hospitals to pull the plug on critically ill patients despite family objections. "The Texas statute that Bush signed authorised the ending of the life, even over the parents' protest," said John Paris, a medical ethicist at Boston College. "What he's doing here is saying, 'The parents are protesting. You shouldn't stop'."
I saw a video of her on Fox News, which showed her following a balloon which was held above her with her eyes, and she was trying to touch it. It isn't like she's in a comatose state, although she may as well be. The politicians should have had no right in interferring with this, especially when 19 judges (now 20 I guess) have all come up with the same conclusion, siding with the husband.
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There about an item about the videos of ...
There about an item about the videos of Terri Schiavo on the news last night. Someone said that the things she did, like following the balloon, where automatic reactions not conscious movements. Apparently her family tried to get her to follow the balloon several times again, but were unable to get her to do so. Another person said it was like an ink-blot test - you read into it what you want.
The cynic once had a dog that got ...
The cynic once had a dog
that got really really stupid
and stupid dog was ok
but then it went way beyond
stupid
and its quality of life sunk to
zero.
If the dog was just a little confused and was
running around the doggie rest home still believing it was
21 and it was still the 1930s or something
(as many dementia people do) I would not have the dog killed.
If it seemed to generally enjoy life but forgot people
and every time I visited it said
"Thomes Cynic? no he is some skinny kid" or "Who?"
or simply "Fuck off, Idon't know you"
there is still quality of life, and awareness, and a bit of life in the old fleabag.
but when the dog is a vegetable
it is humane to put it down.
Parable of the cynic.
//There about an item about the videos ...
//There about an item about the videos of Terri Schiavo on the news last night. Someone said that the things she did, like following the balloon, where automatic reactions not conscious movements.
Yeah I know, but still.
vegetative state or no, withholding ...
vegetative state or no, withholding food and water is a pretty shitty way to die.
That's if you assume she's suffering. ...
That's if you assume she's suffering. The brain scan pretty clearly shows that almost her entire cranial cavity is full of spinal fluid, which has replaced the neurons as they've progressively died. Fortunately, among all of the bits of her brain that have died and rotted away are most of the areas concerned with things like pain. FWIW, In some lovely experiments (probably from the 60s), some neuroscientists cut out the entire cortexof some cats or dogs or something, leaving only the top of the brainstem (effectively what she has). They put them on a treadmill, turned it on, and the "walked". It's sometimes amazing what your brainstem can manage to patch together (as can also be witnessed by less competent shotgun suicides).
She's had about 15 judges, her case was denied a hearing in the Supreme Court because they were comfortable with the previous judgement. The court have employed their own independent doctors, as well as considering the evidence from the parent's doctors (who obviously want her to live).
I wonder how much of this boils down to her parents being catholic and they don't want their daughter to commit suicide because it's a mortal sin...
Yeah, I'm not outrightly against ...
Yeah, I'm not outrightly against pulling the plug per se. It's the ick factor, mainly - it could take weeks for the woman to die, and that just seems...icky... Personally I'd much rather they actively euthenased, and I'm against active euthenasia, as a rule.
Actually, one thing that interests me is that when people are described as being on "life support" I've always associated that with having a machine that's doing your breathing for you. Whatever machinery they have for feeding and hydrating her could be considered "life support", so I'm wondering how often the plug is pulled on people that are breathing on their own. After all, I assume the only reason this case has become so high-profile is because of the disagreement between family members.
making her live in that state for ...
making her live in that state for another 15 years is what seems icky to me . . .
also I'm not sure quite how to put this but . . . as she is now her family can't 'move on' with there lives
//as she is now her family can't ...
//as she is now her family can't 'move on' with there lives
yeah, I assume that's pretty much the argument - husband wants to move on, parents don't want to let go of their little girl
Actually, i think in part it's driven ...
Actually, i think in part it's driven by a conviction of her husband and friends that this is not what she wanted. And in Florida, you are allowed to choose whether you are kept alive in a vegetative state. She was clear that she didn't, but it wasn't in writing, which is how it ended up in court. Her husband apparently re-trained in a health area and works in a nearby hospital and visits her more regularly than her parents. He initially hoped that she would recover, but is convinced by the science that it's not so.
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damn good point with the catholic ...
damn good point with the catholic parents there limegreen. I find the hypocrisy of this president gut churning. Death penalty - ok. Abortion - not ok. bombing thousands of iraqis - ok. allowing the legal guardian of a brain-dead vegetable to turn off her life support after 15 years - not ok. holding "prisoners of war" uncharged and in a prison that is not covered by the geneva convention - ok. abu ghraib - well kinda not okay but we're not really going to make anyone lose their jobs or anything over it... and it was much much worse when saddam was doing it.....
tch. pisses me off.
I find the catholic approach to suicide ...
I find the catholic approach to suicide rather weird. That suicide warrants eternity in hell, but murder doesn't necessarily, because you can repent before you die. However, with suicide, you don't get the chance to repent after you kill yourself. And in this case, because the judgement to remove the feeding tube is deemed to be consistent with her will, it can be perceived as suicide. There's some great logic in there somewhere.
Unrelatedly, CSI on sunday featured a different twist on this, where the kid kills his sister who was conceived to be an organ donor to him. Being catholic, he couldn't kill himself, so he killed his sister, then repented. Blech.
And this stands against all the good things that Catholics do. All the love and tolerance they show Mr Zaoui. Very, very freaking odd.
//However, with suicide, you don't get ...
//However, with suicide, you don't get the chance to repent after you kill yourself.
What if you set in train steps that will inevitably lead to your death, such as by taking a poison for which there is no antidote, so there's absolutely nothing you can do to prevent death. Then you repent. Would that work?
That would probably work. No prize for ...
That would probably work. No prize for guessing your qualifications, you loop-hole looker you. I might be somewhat mis-representing it, but from what I gather it's about that stupid. Incidentally, as far as I can tell, contraception is on par with suicide and murder.
Whilst I will not argue Shrub's patent ...
Whilst I will not argue Shrub's patent Hypocricsy, how many of you pro-euthanasia advocates are prepareded to turn the charge onto your own beliefs?
Abortion, State Sanctioned Executions, and Euthanasia all allow us to kill. Make no mistake, when you decide that others have no right to life, or worse because we cant be bothered looking after undesierables, then the inhereant violence of our actions burden all of Society with a heavy and terrible toll.
Euthanasia will quickly turn into Kids with Illness, Political Lunatics, the Mad, and Old People in general.
If you wish Euthanasia to be legal, state sanctioned, then please, for probably the only time in your life, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS. Sign a disclaimer, granting someone you love the right to kill you, in the circumstances you, when lucid, consider worthy.
It'll be just like sorting your will, you want the right to choose, start acting properley now.
This act of sacrifice to your community, will save a lot of moaning, finger pointing and wailing about certain religions when the next case comes up.
That people may choose to die, is for them and them only, anyone who thinks enacting Euthanasia Lego will not see a landslide in Popping Parents for Profit, has taken leave of there senses, or stands to profit directley from such legoslation.
As for the assumption that the Parents Catholicism is the driving force behind this Keep her alive routine, well thats a real lazy prognosis, the overiding concern for 99% of Parents will be their love of their child, and the awful consequences of the abandonment of Hope. This is not an attempt to seperate their beliefs from this decision, just a refelection that my "Faith" I do not want associated with my percieved level of Parenting.
Catholics and Suicide. Yes its a sin, and anyone whose dealt with Suicide will likely tell you of the awful pain of the knowledge that a loved one had such a high-opinion of you that they killed themselves rather than address the issues. As an act of Selfishness, Suicide ranks with Abortion and the Death Penalty in that we have a "problem" killing things will make it better, and prevent exactly the same circumstances happen to other members of the community again. It really is fairyland stuff.
Pro Euthanasia Advocates, Grow the fuck up, organize some decent lego, ( like far removed from Laws shamble, I loved the Kids "fill-in" on pg1098), and tell us all how the whole process will not be corrupted for Private Profit.
When you do so, and some of us have been waiting for a long time now, then maybe your predjudices re:Religion and accusations of hypocrocey wont ring so hollow.
well said not wanting to dwell on the ...
well said
not wanting to dwell on the states and that mickey mouse legal system
i'm thinking of that case in wanganui a while back
some kind of assist went on, lesley martin got done for it
that stuff should be legal
pretty easy to legislate,
i can't see any problems with that,
if the person consciously makes that decision.
and like you say-writing your will.
//TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS
if only we could
//As for the assumption that the ...
//As for the assumption that the Parents Catholicism is the driving force behind this Keep her alive routine, well thats a real lazy prognosis,
There's some good points in your post, but I didn't just pull that theory relating to catholicism out of my arse. I got it after reading up a shit-load on the background of the case. I have a lot of respect for catholics, know a few, class a friar as a mentor. Just find the official line (as opposed to the unofficial views of millions of catholics) a bit odd. As far as I'm aware, the Roman Catholic church is the only one where there is such an attempt to try to have a unitary belief system across all members, which is especially odd, as, like most other churches, it contains a lot of diversity.
//some kind of assist went on, lesley ...
//some kind of assist went on, lesley martin got done for it
that stuff should be legal?//
Lesley Martin killed her mother because she couldn't deal with someone elses weakness and vulnerablity, she thought her mothers slow death would be 'indignifed' ie. she couldn't deal with her own discomfert with it, the burden of it, so she killed her to get it over with.
If this selfish bully represents the right to die movement then I'm glad noone gives their arguments any serioues thought. 'To Die Like a Dog' says it all about her- apparently when people become sick and vulnerable they lose all their human dignity, they are dogs, according to Martin. Otjhers might say that huamns have dognity whterh alive and well or sick and dying. It's up to the public to decide, but I know I wouldn't want some egotistical child of mine 'deciding' when my time is up, just to avoid pain and suffering for themselves.....
Heh, "dognity". :D...
Heh, "dognity". :D
Catholics have numerous "get into ...
Catholics have numerous "get into heaven free" options. I guess that's what happens after 2000 years of bureacracy.
If I remember Form 1 religious studies correctly one of the easiest ways is to die wearing a mediallion dedicated to a certain saint. Unfortunately the saint's name escapes me.
if the persons quality of life is that ...
if the persons quality of life is that bad, that they no longer want to live, or they have a terminal illness that will ultimately end up with them dying through a large amount of pain and suffering and they are 250% sure they want to die, and they have thought about it, talked about it, and are absolutly positive, they want to die, and they can go on no longer what right does anyone have not to grant them that wish??? i say get them to sign a document stating their wish, video tape it, voice record it as evidence they did it willingly, so NO one can be held legally liable for what happened other than the person who wants to die,
but on the other hand life is a precious thing and for some one to end someone elses life ( who isnt a murderer or a killer etc) must be a very hard thing to deal with,
im kinda on the fence for this topic, on one hand you have someone who wants to die, shouldnt they be allowed to chose that??? but on the other hand you got someones life.
come on Dan jump from the fence Bush ...
come on Dan jump from the fence
Bush is against the tube being removed
and bush is always wrong
Jump towards the cynic
and his retarded dog!
//i say get them to sign a document ...
//i say get them to sign a document stating their wish, video tape it, voice record it as evidence they did it willingly,
She's brain dead. So she can't do jack, let along sign her name or talk. The verdict that the feeding tube should be removed is based on a trial in which judges have examined the evidence that suggest that she said before her heart attack that she would not wish to be kept alive artificially...
Aside form the actual specifics here, ...
Aside form the actual specifics here, does anyone believe that a fully functional, healthy adult should have the right to choose death (legally) and recieve assisted suicide if that is their wish?
Some people might say that it is a persnal right but I think it would be pretty hard to make a 'rational' choice to die, even for the terminally ill. I mean to make an informed choice you need to understand the options, but assuming death is oblivion, how do you understand oblivion? How can a rational human being chose oblivion when we have no concept of what it is to not exist. In short how can you rationally choose death?
Kind of like in switzerland where until recently I think assisted suicide was legal, you had old people choosing to die because they had no friends left, and felt they had nothing more to live for. Is this where all the euthanasia stuff is leading?
On exactly the same basis it is equally ...
On exactly the same basis it is equally impossible to make a "rational" decision to stay alive, since you have no ability to weigh that option against the alternative.
Not sure. I think fully functional ...
Not sure. I think fully functional people have a right to kill themselves. But personaly I see it as a weakness. But I don't think choosing to die cheapens life. In fact it enhances life because it gets rid of all those useless fuckers that want to chuck in the towel.
I think there are situations where it is more acceptable - like making a heroic sacrifice for someone else. Those japanese samuri used to kill themselves as an face saving device. Saving face was more important than life. You have to admire their courage.
Why would a fully functional healthy ...
Why would a fully functional healthy person require assisted suicide?
and who would assist?...
and who would assist?
In Oregon, if two doctors agree the ...
In Oregon, if two doctors agree the person will die within 6 months, and various other precautions are met, the person is dispensed with enough medication to kill themselves. However, they must swallow them themselves with no aid. The "assistance" is in the prescription of a relatively pleasant and effective cocktail o drugs.
Someone stepped in front of my train on ...
Someone stepped in front of my train on the way home from work, so this has obviously got me thinking.
For me to understand it (suicide/euthanasia), I must try to empathise with it... when I think about my life, and the kind of utter catastrophe it would take to remove every single thing I consider worth staying alive for (or in the Schiavo case, losing my recognition of it); to be left completely devoid of hope for improvement; if the one thing left under my control was to end my suffering, and for that choice to be removed from me as well... yet to legislate this, aren't we effectively saying yes, some human lives really aren't worth living? And who's qualified to say so if the person themselves can't? Who would want the responsibility of that choice?
I think everyone eventualy has a bad ...
I think everyone eventualy has a bad end in store for them. Just look at animals in nature - most things are eaten alive, or die of disease, thirst or starvation. Why shouldn't humans expect a nasty end too?
I say let her starve...
It really is more humane than you think it is. Consider that if she did have enough of her faculties to suffer from the starvation, then it would be nothing compared to the suffereing she already has to endure. Being unable to interact with the world. Even just lying still quickly becomes painful. Two weeks of sufferening must be preferable to a decade of pain.
(hey, have you seen killbill? Nasty shit happens when you are in a coma =D)
Jon Stewart is awesome....
Jon Stewart is awesome.
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"It'll be just like Queer Eye, only.. ...
"It'll be just like Queer Eye, only.. they'll hate gay people."
i think people should have far more ...
i think people should have far more right to choose whether they live or die than some politician/judge/doctor/protester...
Well shes dead now....
Well shes dead now.
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