So basically you like Boys Own Adventure & True Crime stories but you find topics like the development of Social Welfare in NZ and the USA boring?

/So basically you like Boys Own Adventure & True Crime stories but you find topics like the development of Social Welfare in NZ and the USA boring?

its all good in own way. The ongoing story of rascism in the USA is fascinating and a little scary when they call themselves the land of the free.
If I was to study history any further though I'd be more interested in things written off as popular history over the big stories. crime stories, urban legend, folklore, etc.
History is an argument that never ends, for once I'd rather avoid the arguments and just fill in the details of its incidental characters.
Now, back to look on the web for an argument to join.

//In one ear, out the other, as such.
//Something I'm becoming increasingly wary that I'm guilty of too. No google? No idea.

I read some article somewhere in which some teacher reckoned there's been a notable change in the way people process facts since the advent of the internet. People aren't doing as well in, say, exams involving the recollection of specifics - facts, stats and formulae - but their term work, primarily essays, is of a consistently high quality. He's put forward the idea that since people can access a lot of information in a relatively short space of time, they just don't bother to remember the facts; after all, they can just look them up as they need them. Instead, people tend to be developing improved research skills and critical thinking.

//up!) I overhear some sales guys talking bout 'Alexander'
"Oh it is just about some gay guy"
" Yeah I would have expected Oliver Stone to have more historical accuracy"
I wanted to drag their asses down to a library and forcefeed them the last 80 pages of Nick Hammond's history of Greece.

Make them read Hamilton while they're at it too - "Alexander was suprised to find Darius and his armies in his rear".

Hmm, given that's all I took away from that particular unit of Classics, maybe it WASN'T the most useful thing in the world to study...

// think the problem is more that teenagers are told it's acceptable to think that history is boring, or math is hard, or only boys are good at sports, etc

Agreed Velocity. I think that is often a reflection on the teacher too.

I want so much to watch the History channell but it is much repetitive military arse. It's as if WW2 was the only thing that ever happened.

as much as i agree with most of what you just wrote. get fucked.

And when I was at school, all they taught was NZ history..
Which is unfortunate, because that's all I heard about through my entire schooling life.
Only NZ history, spending my final year on it at college was like hell.

I could have happily studied history from *any* other country, extensively, but never had the option.

Having the 'history' of the Treaty of Waitangi reeled off unenthusiastically by every teacher I had from primary school to fifth form has conditioned me to sprint at the mere sight of anything to do with New Zealand history. Is it a Ministry requirement that every class study the topic every year? A plan to perhaps make us so bored with the topic that we never pay any attention to it and its related issues today as adults?

Like Robyn's point bout history of old, same could be said for English right up to the 70s (Just as ridiculuos when you consider NZ has more poets per head of population than virtually anywhere else in the world). Nz content had to be in there but when I was teaching I reckon some schools put too much NZ content in there.

Social studies can be a brilliant subject when taught correctly. It can cross into history, economics, geography, sociology, media studies.... a whole bunch of stuff, some schools try to do too much too quick in my opinion. I went along to an interview at Avondale college a few years ago and thought they had the best paced curriculum I've seen yet. Some other schools have atrocious curriculums

Nothing wrong with getting history off net, cept the lack of bullshit filter that usually goes with books. Then again that can be real interesting too. Found a page once that claimed the world is in fact five flat planes, all identical, and geography teachers all across the planet have taken an oath not to disclose this info. Lost link to it though.

//isn't it just general knowledge

History is more than just facts or knowledge, but about how things interrelate, and especially the ability to infer causes and influences. Putting that knowledge into a contextual framework gives a much deeper understanding. So "reading the New Zealand encyclopaedia" will at best give you kind of a brief consensus view with a hopefully semi-objective viewpoint. Multiple sources from different perspectives, including primary sources and some quality commentaries can't be substituted by an encyclopaedia entry. And without that kind of depth, you'll not really quite get why Israelis and Palestinians get on so well, or what drives Tariana Turia, or why Bush is how he is, or why telecom was sold...

// what practical use does history have?
hopefully it allows us to learn from the mistakes of the past. And it can produce some extremely marketable skills.

I think there's actually quite a demand for top history graduates in quite diverse fields. Ironically, a lot of business/insurance type outfits like their critical thinking and research abilities, and ability to consider historical trends in whatever type of operation they're conducting.

//Simon's point on Racism in USA, and Limegreen's reminder on the consenus nature of Encyclopideas are both extermley pertinent, how would you like such phenonmen explained/compiled/disscused//

exactly, history is all interperetaion and here is a prime example of people using it for particular political bug bears...who cares ..... i dont want to sit in a class room and be told the the crown never really won the Land Wars so that's why Maori reatain soveirenty. Far from whether students agree or disagree - it's useless information, what use does that knowledge have, or what rather what use should it have if people left school to do usefull things and not write wnaky columns in a magazine or be a politician. It's bullshit, open to the poltical manipulation... anyone can use history to prove some point that really originated in their own opinions... what a waste of time.

// dont want to sit in a class room and be told the the crown never really won the Land Wars so that's why Maori reatain soveirenty

Yeah god forbid you should gain some understanding as to how our country got to where it is today, or you know, even move past the 1950s and consider that most historians refer to the 'Land Wars' as the 'New Zealand Wars' because it wasn't all about land....

who cares. its steinlager.

// talk about the crusades, or Chinese dynasties,
// or the beginnings of bolshevism in the former Soviet Union

bloody hell, that was the history degree I did. rdor, have you been stalking...?

//It's bullshit, open to the poltical manipulation... anyone can use history to prove some point that really originated in their own opinions

And no. In some respects history is rather like science. the current belief will be X, somebody will have a new hypothesis Y, they'll fight backwards and forwards for a while, usually meeting somewhere in the middle, before the next person conjours up Hypothesis Z and so on. There's not doubt that some people will be pushing certain agendas, but to get some idea of "truth" you need to consider the current best evidence from a variety of sources.

//that the basis of the whole Maori Party philosophy,

That's just more scaremongering. Have you actually read or looked at any of their policies, or are you just making stuff up out of your own fear?

/ i dont want to sit in a class room and be told the the crown never really won the Land Wars so that's why Maori reatain soveirenty.

If Maori won it was a pyrhhic victory, they lost in the end. Undeniable fact they sold or had stolen approx 3 million acres of land (from memory- not going to cross referrence on net). Fact they won more battles than pakeha, fact they lost the war- maybe cause they were not soldiers and eventually had to go back to work the land, or maybe they were just worn down by a more patient foe.
Fact the crown did sign an agreement, known as the treaty of Waitangi, which they have by and large ignored for most of the history of NZ.
Fact the international law of contra preferrendum comes into play- in short you have to follow what the native version says when there are descrepencies. They never signed away Mana but agreed to sign tira rangatiratanga- they have an argument for self determination, whether it would be a bright thing to do or not.
Fact some treaty claims are plain ridiculous, fabrications by tribal lawyers to tie up the courts thus ensuring them a good income for decades to come.
Fact there are some very pertinent and fair treaty claims- Land was still being stolen from Maori in our parents generations, even later. (If I remember right a law passed in 53 stopping maori from bringing suburban style building to tribal lands and a law in 54 taking back land the maori left, believing it to be safely theirs, when moving to the suburbs- you know for jobs and modern living and stuff- after all it was just abandoned land and should be put to a better use. Put yourself in their shoes rdor- fair claim?)

/Far from whether students agree or disagree - it's useless information, what use does that knowledge have, or what rather what use should it have if people left school to do usefull things and not write wnaky columns in a magazine or be a politician. It's bullshit, open to the poltical manipulation... anyone can use history to prove some point that really originated in their own opinions... what a waste of time.

Agree with some of above rdor. Everything written is going to have a bias. you cannot have true history without a bias, otherwise it is just dates. study of history allows you to decide, from wherever your moral compass points, whether you agree or disagree, in a critical, less dogmatic way.

History useless? Never!

/Clearly the idea of History in a state cirriculm has merit.
Just who is writing it and for what ends is where we continually run into problems.
Written by the Victor, yes often, Written by the Paymaster, Always.

Love the point Mr Foal. Maybe history actually gives a clearer point when it unashamedly tells 'a story' instead of 'the story' , just cause we would approach it less as gospel?

No our History or Archeology is not boring.
In fact some serious opening up of certain areas to independent "eyes" would be, I suggest, most illuminating.

"Fact"1 Ngai Tahu have in their possession at least 8 skeletons of Humaniod Giants.
"Fact"2 The Offical State Secrets Act (50 years suppresion of data), was utilized on dating of the Kaimaniha "Structre/Wall".
Fact3 The Lake Taupo Volcanic Eruption can be dated by the Chinese Records of the event.
It is hard to find anyone who seriously believes that Rats can be in NZ without Human assitiance
Why are Fossilised Rats, Carbon Dated pre Eruption under the Volcanic Sediment strata?
Fact4 There is at least two "dubious", or more correctly "timeline anomolus", Boat wrecks on NZ Beachs.

Te Papa and National Archieves are too the best of my knowledge well aware of these 4 instances.
So, in our History Classes how should we present "infomation" that is at odds with the current day school o' thought.
That possibly may be what Dear R'dor is a getting at.
If History is to be taught as Fact, what constiutes a Fact, and how was this consenus reached.
Using "Scientific" as appeal to objectivity is pointless, as clearly that only suits those who have already decided that is the belief structure that suits them best.
Reading about Professor Gallo at the mo', just how polluted the schools of learning have become and the whole State funding that allows it to influence our minds is staggering.
Of course that is if you believe it.

I think Filly30 knobbled it pretty good, History is in good shape, because there is lots of stories.
Top Thread Simon.

//paying rent to iwi

sound slike something Kyle Chapman and his fellow clowns from the Nazinal Farce ooops...I mean National Front would say