I agree that the current flag is outdated and reminiscent of our colonial past. Changing it won't mean forgetting our roots, nor would it disrespect soldiers who fought "for the flag" (huh?). It's too easily confused with all the other flags that incorporate the union jack. I'd like to see the Maori flag used, although I think that it could be hard to get a majority on it.
As devil's advocate, here's a different viewpoint:
Is there a petition to save our flag I can sign? Or a petition to change the national anthem.... If we changed to the silver fern would our government have to pay copyright royalties to the New Zealand Rugby Union as its officially their brand? I prefer what we got to something that looks more like a white feather, I get a bit sick of all this national "branding" its what people do with their lives that gives them identity not what coloured flag they have.
// If we changed to the silver fern would our government
// have to pay copyright royalties to the New Zealand
// Rugby Union as its officially their brand?
probably only if the Governement decided to use the same style of fern that the All Blacks use. There's plenty of organisations that get away with using a stylised fern shape without attracting the wrath of the NZRU (eg. Netball, Olympic Team, Cricket)
I have to agree that NZ will be a country with its own unique identity and being independently of whether we change the flag or not. Any new flag will not have universal support and will cause an element of division - the mere fact that the four or five people quoted have different ideas of what the flag should be illustrates that neatly. I can't really get very impassioned by this debate at all, I think there are far more important things going on in my own life, in our country and the world than the particular design to be employed on a piece of bunting.
If we do change, we should go the way of those cheap Thai fake-silk umbrellas which have great pictures printed on them (you see these in $2 shops): maybe a big plate of fish and chips, with a bottle of watties tomato sauce to one side and a bottle of Pinot Noir to the other.
//I have to agree that NZ will be a country with its own unique identity and being independently of whether we change the flag or not.
That's approximately about my position on becoming a republic. I think the expense of the legal enaction of republicanisation will probably greatly outweight the symbolism, but I'm moderately pro a new flag, but I like some more designs more than others haha. A penny for your thoughts on republicanisation sir?
I'd say we're damn near a republic in all but name as it is, so we may as well take that final step. We've stopped outsourcing our judicial functions, the Governor-General has not had to do anything meaningful in New Zealand in living memory, the UK Parliament has no power to enact laws on our behalf, a step which was taken in the mid 1980's. While I personally really liked the fact that we could have some of the most brilliant legal minds in the Commonwealth applied to our legal problems, once that was taken away, the idea of us having our head of state in England became a farce. Economically and politically, we've been on our own ever since the UK decided that their future lay with the EEC and not its former colonies, so I say that its time we recognise it. A new flag under those circumstances would then become important, but I don't think that any such flag should then be some dualistic symbol of Maori and non-Maori, because that fails to recognise the diversity of all of us who are non-Maori (and possibly also the diversity of the Maori themselves).
Of course, if being a part of the British Commonwealth actually meant that I had the automatic right to reside in Britain, my opinion would probably be different but the fact that I was expelled in 1991 has played its part in shaping my attitudes.
I agree with myshkin its irrelevant changing the flag is like "changing rooms" everyone has their own ideas on colour schemes , also Im fine with the fern being used for sports occasions like it is now but its only recently in last ten years or so the fern has been used to sell every everything under the sun. Companies want to latch onto this sporting icon such as trade new zealand to sell goods and services overseas etc and such linking business with sporting passion. Why do we feel so insecure that out flag looks similar to the Aussies? we are next door to them geographically we fought side by side in both world wars and they got a great cricket team :) If you look at europe their flags are similar just a different combination of 3 colours horizontal stipes in most cases... until we become a republic the queen is still head of state and so flag reflects this until that changes so will the flag.. I havent seen a beige coloured flag design yet, nothing too flashy just like most kiwis :)
I'd stand in the theatres and sing Home Again (..not that thats still done with save NZ heh but still)
..and I still reckon a rainbow flag would be really f'n cool ..and can include dark colours too, so people of the future can look back at Once Were Warriors and be slightly confused when Grace says to Tu "have you ever noticed how there's no black in a rainbow" (that was the gist..can't remember exact words)
I've been very vocal about this matter for sometime. Check out some possible alternatives of the flag by following the link below. And please - state which is YOUR favourite.
The second one is probably more accurate than any of the others. The rest are OK but as I've said, I have trouble with any flag really speaking to or for me.
What about just a stylised portrait of Helen Clark's face on a red background, Mao style? She's going to be prime minister/Queen of NZ until death anyway, might as well accept it and celebrate her. And she deserves it, after this student loan promise they've just made. Thanks Auntie Helen.
I just want the chance to answer the question " Do we need a new design for the New Zealand flag?" in an official capacity where my answer actually counts towards a result. So I'm all for the referendum.
I think the time to change the New Zealand flag is when it becomes a republic.
There's nothing wrong or offensive with the current flag. It shows that New Zealand is part of the British Commonwealth and that it's located in the South Pacific, all of which are true.
I'm always puzzled by people who complain about the New Zealand flag looking similar to the Australian flag. Why is this such a terrible thing? Australia is our closest neighbour and we have a lot of cultural and economic connections. Many European countries have similar-looking tricolour flags, in fact, Ireland deliberately picked a tricolour to align itself with other European republics.
The NZFlag trust remind me of the Business Roundtable funding all those ads about how FPP is good around the time of MMP. I think groups chucking all this money into PR work is a real issue with referenda in general, more so than with election campaigns.
No disrespect intended to Lloyd Morrison, who is a partner in a label that has put out a lot of my music! :) Oh, and a partner in this fine site as well, of course.
The problem with the white/silver fern on the black background is it looks like ye olde skull and cross-bones from a distance.
The Jolly Rodger, the flag of pirates.
Okay, I was totally against the silver fern on black background as our flag (because I would like NZ to be known for more than rugby, and that design is probably what most outsiders would associate with it and us), but now you say PIRATE, I say bring it on!
yeah. the jeffy james one is the business: koru/wave, stars, good colours, and nicely reminiscent (but not *too* similar) to the Tino Rangatiratanga flag.
Yeah that's the one I like too, because it still has the southern cross, and because it's vaguely like the tinorangatitirotanga one but different enough that it can still have meaning for the pakeha too. The colour scheme is really striking, and it's different from all the other flags in the world without looking like a bad piece of clipart like some do, AND because it's brand new, and I think that gives us a great chance to start again as a nation.
Is there any chance of the nz flag page running a poll for prefered flag design?
This flag is by far my favourite. I've been lukewarm at best about pushing the flag change (even though I support it ideologically) because none of the flags have really impressed me at all. This one does. Who is he?
i agree. but i dont agree it being changed to the design that the hikoi displayd. not sure what its called but it brings stigma to the maori people and i would be in favour of a mutual flag.
The thing that really annoys me about the new flag debate is that people seem to think it is important. It a flag, nobody is going to change their opinion of NZ becuase we change our flag, nobody is going to be better off becuase we change our flag and nobody aside from New Zealand is really going to care - so why do it when there are other issues in NZ which I thought would have been far more important.
The amount of time and money being poured into it kind of sickens me - seems like an utter waste. Certainly there are more important issues which affect NZ than our flag. Health? Education? Policing?
But these issues require people to actually do some work to understand whereas the flag is something that people can just express an opinion on without really needing to think.
I had more but am feeling far to spitefull to rant further.
we all know what Clint Eastwood has to say about opinions. So true to form, I bend over and show you mine. I just looked at the site of the all new clean lines stylised bent spear head feather spatula pirate flag. they had a section which included the maori flag and... sweet jesus its really good. I already knew this. If only us closet racist pakeha could accept that this isn't an extension of engrand, we could find something to be really proud of in the flag of tino rangatiratanga. spelling? tori spelling? well it sh*ts all over anything with green in it... at least pay attention to basic colour theory, "designers". I bet you wish you could make it all from creative typography.
// they had a section which included the maori flag and...
// sweet jesus its really good.
which is why the jeffy james 'Southern Cross' design is my favourite. Same basic black/white/red design of the Tino Rangatiratanga flag and some koru/wave action, while also including the good old Southern Cross. It kicks arse, check it out...
Shush now child.
Don't you know, that the money behind that campaign is the same money that's behind this site and Capital Recordings?
Must say though. That I'm glad it's over, and I am more than a little fucked off at Mr Morrison for blaming the collapse of the project on apathy. I, myself, have seen the petition form on about 20 occasions. I didn't sign it because I thought it was a stupid idea, and not because I'm lazy.
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I agree that the current flag is ...
I agree that the current flag is outdated and reminiscent of our colonial past. Changing it won't mean forgetting our roots, nor would it disrespect soldiers who fought "for the flag" (huh?). It's too easily confused with all the other flags that incorporate the union jack. I'd like to see the Maori flag used, although I think that it could be hard to get a majority on it.
As devil's advocate, here's a different viewpoint:
[ external link ]
Is there a petition to save our flag I ...
Is there a petition to save our flag I can sign? Or a petition to change the national anthem.... If we changed to the silver fern would our government have to pay copyright royalties to the New Zealand Rugby Union as its officially their brand? I prefer what we got to something that looks more like a white feather, I get a bit sick of all this national "branding" its what people do with their lives that gives them identity not what coloured flag they have.
[ http://www.hikikomori.tv ]
// If we changed to the silver fern ...
// If we changed to the silver fern would our government
// have to pay copyright royalties to the New Zealand
// Rugby Union as its officially their brand?
probably only if the Governement decided to use the same style of fern that the All Blacks use. There's plenty of organisations that get away with using a stylised fern shape without attracting the wrath of the NZRU (eg. Netball, Olympic Team, Cricket)
I have to agree that NZ will be a ...
I have to agree that NZ will be a country with its own unique identity and being independently of whether we change the flag or not. Any new flag will not have universal support and will cause an element of division - the mere fact that the four or five people quoted have different ideas of what the flag should be illustrates that neatly. I can't really get very impassioned by this debate at all, I think there are far more important things going on in my own life, in our country and the world than the particular design to be employed on a piece of bunting.
If we do change, we should go the way of those cheap Thai fake-silk umbrellas which have great pictures printed on them (you see these in $2 shops): maybe a big plate of fish and chips, with a bottle of watties tomato sauce to one side and a bottle of Pinot Noir to the other.
//I have to agree that NZ will be a ...
//I have to agree that NZ will be a country with its own unique identity and being independently of whether we change the flag or not.
That's approximately about my position on becoming a republic. I think the expense of the legal enaction of republicanisation will probably greatly outweight the symbolism, but I'm moderately pro a new flag, but I like some more designs more than others haha. A penny for your thoughts on republicanisation sir?
I'd say we're damn near a republic in ...
I'd say we're damn near a republic in all but name as it is, so we may as well take that final step. We've stopped outsourcing our judicial functions, the Governor-General has not had to do anything meaningful in New Zealand in living memory, the UK Parliament has no power to enact laws on our behalf, a step which was taken in the mid 1980's. While I personally really liked the fact that we could have some of the most brilliant legal minds in the Commonwealth applied to our legal problems, once that was taken away, the idea of us having our head of state in England became a farce. Economically and politically, we've been on our own ever since the UK decided that their future lay with the EEC and not its former colonies, so I say that its time we recognise it. A new flag under those circumstances would then become important, but I don't think that any such flag should then be some dualistic symbol of Maori and non-Maori, because that fails to recognise the diversity of all of us who are non-Maori (and possibly also the diversity of the Maori themselves).
Of course, if being a part of the British Commonwealth actually meant that I had the automatic right to reside in Britain, my opinion would probably be different but the fact that I was expelled in 1991 has played its part in shaping my attitudes.
I agree with myshkin its irrelevant ...
I agree with myshkin its irrelevant changing the flag is like "changing rooms" everyone has their own ideas on colour schemes , also Im fine with the fern being used for sports occasions like it is now but its only recently in last ten years or so the fern has been used to sell every everything under the sun. Companies want to latch onto this sporting icon such as trade new zealand to sell goods and services overseas etc and such linking business with sporting passion. Why do we feel so insecure that out flag looks similar to the Aussies? we are next door to them geographically we fought side by side in both world wars and they got a great cricket team :) If you look at europe their flags are similar just a different combination of 3 colours horizontal stipes in most cases... until we become a republic the queen is still head of state and so flag reflects this until that changes so will the flag.. I havent seen a beige coloured flag design yet, nothing too flashy just like most kiwis :)
[ http://www.hikikomori.tv ]
Our fine NZ musicians should be putting ...
Our fine NZ musicians should be putting their efforts & skills into creating a new National Anthem - God Defend New Zealand is horrible.
(just an opinion)
hehe - some of us can remember when God ...
hehe - some of us can remember when God Save the Queen was our national anthem - the current one is several steps up from that!
Shihad's Home Again was mooted as a ...
Shihad's Home Again was mooted as a replacement for the anthem, when the issue of the anthem was first aired.
I doubt that would ever happen...
I doubt that would ever happen
i like our national anthem. it just ...
i like our national anthem. it just needs some doof doof under it.
I'd stand in the theatres and sing ...
I'd stand in the theatres and sing Home Again (..not that thats still done with save NZ heh but still)
..and I still reckon a rainbow flag would be really f'n cool ..and can include dark colours too, so people of the future can look back at Once Were Warriors and be slightly confused when Grace says to Tu "have you ever noticed how there's no black in a rainbow" (that was the gist..can't remember exact words)
rainbow! rainbow!
I think ashtray ashtray by die die die ...
I think ashtray ashtray by die die die would probably be the best choice for a new national anthem.
my pick would be... You're Bored ...
my pick would be...
You're Bored Because You're Boring
...by the mint chicks.
//ashtray ashtray by die die die ...
//ashtray ashtray by die die die
Auckland is Burning
I've been very vocal about this matter ...
I've been very vocal about this matter for sometime. Check out some possible alternatives of the flag by following the link below. And please - state which is YOUR favourite.
[ external link ]
The second one is probably more ...
The second one is probably more accurate than any of the others. The rest are OK but as I've said, I have trouble with any flag really speaking to or for me.
Still pushing this barrow......
Still pushing this barrow...
[ http://www.runny.com/dustinflags.html ]
A bit Norweigen. Also I'm not a fan of ...
A bit Norweigen. Also I'm not a fan of the St George Cross cause that's English. I'd also prefer five sided red stars.
What about just a stylised portrait of ...
What about just a stylised portrait of Helen Clark's face on a red background, Mao style? She's going to be prime minister/Queen of NZ until death anyway, might as well accept it and celebrate her. And she deserves it, after this student loan promise they've just made. Thanks Auntie Helen.
I just want the chance to answer the ...
I just want the chance to answer the question " Do we need a new design for the New Zealand flag?" in an official capacity where my answer actually counts towards a result. So I'm all for the referendum.
Well the petiiton is for a ...
Well the petiiton is for a 'non-binding national referendum' which means that the government can ignore the result anyway.
I'm sick of the entire flag debate - just a huge waste of time and money for absolutley no practical gain whatsoever.
I think the time to change the New ...
I think the time to change the New Zealand flag is when it becomes a republic.
There's nothing wrong or offensive with the current flag. It shows that New Zealand is part of the British Commonwealth and that it's located in the South Pacific, all of which are true.
I'm always puzzled by people who complain about the New Zealand flag looking similar to the Australian flag. Why is this such a terrible thing? Australia is our closest neighbour and we have a lot of cultural and economic connections. Many European countries have similar-looking tricolour flags, in fact, Ireland deliberately picked a tricolour to align itself with other European republics.
But it's very much worth debating.
You may be interested to know that the ...
You may be interested to know that the NZ flag is older than the Australian one - we're trend setters.
The NZFlag trust remind me of the ...
The NZFlag trust remind me of the Business Roundtable funding all those ads about how FPP is good around the time of MMP. I think groups chucking all this money into PR work is a real issue with referenda in general, more so than with election campaigns.
No disrespect intended to Lloyd Morrison, who is a partner in a label that has put out a lot of my music! :) Oh, and a partner in this fine site as well, of course.
// the time of MMP The time of the ...
// the time of MMP
The time of the referendum about MMP, I meant.
The problem with the white/silver fern ...
The problem with the white/silver fern on the black background is it looks like ye olde skull and cross-bones from a distance.
The Jolly Rodger, the flag of pirates.
Quite apt considering our politicians.
Yo, yo, yo and a bottle of gin my homies
I think that fern one that they are ...
I think that fern one that they are using to advertise this everywhere - it looks like a knife blade (uh, yeah, hmm).
I think I prefer this one:
http://www.nzflag.com/designs_frizzell.cfm
or this one:
http://www.nzflag.com/designs_jeffyjames.cfm
[ http://www.therockfactory.net ]
Okay, I was totally against the silver ...
Okay, I was totally against the silver fern on black background as our flag (because I would like NZ to be known for more than rugby, and that design is probably what most outsiders would associate with it and us), but now you say PIRATE, I say bring it on!
yeah. the jeffy james one is the ...
yeah. the jeffy james one is the business: koru/wave, stars, good colours, and nicely reminiscent (but not *too* similar) to the Tino Rangatiratanga flag.
Yeah that's the one I like too, ...
Yeah that's the one I like too, because it still has the southern cross, and because it's vaguely like the tinorangatitirotanga one but different enough that it can still have meaning for the pakeha too. The colour scheme is really striking, and it's different from all the other flags in the world without looking like a bad piece of clipart like some do, AND because it's brand new, and I think that gives us a great chance to start again as a nation.
Is there any chance of the nz flag page running a poll for prefered flag design?
This flag is by far my favourite. I've ...
This flag is by far my favourite. I've been lukewarm at best about pushing the flag change (even though I support it ideologically) because none of the flags have really impressed me at all. This one does. Who is he?
I'm a fan as well. There's a bit of a ...
I'm a fan as well. There's a bit of a profile of him on this page.
[ http://www.nzflag.com/newdesigns.cfm ]
Ha ha ha! "Home Again!" Could you ...
Ha ha ha! "Home Again!"
Could you imagine....with full brass band...and a fleet of marching girls...
and Helen Clark on the sidelines screaming:
"New Zealand, are you ready to rock??"
"I said, are you ready to ROCK???"
i agree. but i dont agree it being ...
i agree. but i dont agree it being changed to the design that the hikoi displayd. not sure what its called but it brings stigma to the maori people and i would be in favour of a mutual flag.
[rant mode enabled] The thing that ...
[rant mode enabled]
The thing that really annoys me about the new flag debate is that people seem to think it is important. It a flag, nobody is going to change their opinion of NZ becuase we change our flag, nobody is going to be better off becuase we change our flag and nobody aside from New Zealand is really going to care - so why do it when there are other issues in NZ which I thought would have been far more important.
The amount of time and money being poured into it kind of sickens me - seems like an utter waste. Certainly there are more important issues which affect NZ than our flag. Health? Education? Policing?
But these issues require people to actually do some work to understand whereas the flag is something that people can just express an opinion on without really needing to think.
I had more but am feeling far to spitefull to rant further.
[rant mode disabled]
we all know what Clint Eastwood has to ...
we all know what Clint Eastwood has to say about opinions. So true to form, I bend over and show you mine. I just looked at the site of the all new clean lines stylised bent spear head feather spatula pirate flag. they had a section which included the maori flag and... sweet jesus its really good. I already knew this. If only us closet racist pakeha could accept that this isn't an extension of engrand, we could find something to be really proud of in the flag of tino rangatiratanga. spelling? tori spelling? well it sh*ts all over anything with green in it... at least pay attention to basic colour theory, "designers". I bet you wish you could make it all from creative typography.
[ http://www.redmore.co.nz ]
// they had a section which included ...
// they had a section which included the maori flag and...
// sweet jesus its really good.
which is why the jeffy james 'Southern Cross' design is my favourite. Same basic black/white/red design of the Tino Rangatiratanga flag and some koru/wave action, while also including the good old Southern Cross. It kicks arse, check it out...
[ external link ]
I was going to write something, but ...
I was going to write something, but then decided to flag it.
Thank goodness this has died a quiet ...
Thank goodness this has died a quiet and un-noticed death :-)
[ external link ]
Shush now child. Don't you know, that ...
Shush now child.
Don't you know, that the money behind that campaign is the same money that's behind this site and Capital Recordings?
Must say though. That I'm glad it's over, and I am more than a little fucked off at Mr Morrison for blaming the collapse of the project on apathy. I, myself, have seen the petition form on about 20 occasions. I didn't sign it because I thought it was a stupid idea, and not because I'm lazy.