just to take the focus away from the 'parachute 05' thread due to it's partial irrelevance.
are christian musicians capeable of producing quality music? yay or nay/yes or no?
i want a clean fight...
...lets get it on
Submitted by chronickiwi on Wed, 2004-11-17 02:43.
yes of course they are, there some great local christian bands where I live. But the problem with a lot of christian music comes down to the fact they're thinking like you are in this thread. They try and follow trends and keep up with all the modern popular bands, and end up being poor rehashed versions of them rather than new and creative.
how is that being like me in this thread :-(
...yeh i agree that they try and follow trends...but don't all bands to a certain extent? they incorporate aspects of music they like.
Submitted by chronickiwi on Thu, 2004-11-18 17:14.
"""how is that being like me in this thread :-("""
not you, but the attitude of the thread, that need to break in and compare to everyone else, in return forgetting about all those vertues that make music fun and great and instead focussing on everything else.
//that need to break in and compare to everyone else, in return forgetting about all those vertues that make music fun and great and instead focussing on everything else.//
that is precisely the point im trying to make with this thread...
Good grief - I can't believe we are still on this topic. Of course christians can produce great music, just as satanists, athiests, jews, buddists etc can. Being of a specific religion has nothing to do with it. Enough already.........
Hmm, I think it depends on whether you're a group with Christians in it or a Christian group, if that makes any sense. All the Christian groups, a la Parachute, really do sound exactly the same somehow, be it lyrical content, earnest singing and performance, and a really conventional, non-threatening sound. I mean, Steriogram and Eight are both ostensibly mainstream, and have that same ghastly, bland effect on me. But then, I'm sure a lot of the groups I like have religious members and frequently delve into matters spiritual..what can I say? I think Christian rock sucks, as opposed to rock made by Christians. A confused Yay.
have you been to parachute?..
if you have you've either sat at mainstage the whole time and haven't had the decency to admire the extensive diversity in the music played there.
i see your point with maybe christian lyrics are often similar etc.
but how many songs in the world are written about falling in love with girls or taking drugs? can they too be written off as crap just because they incorporate the same theme/message?
Hmm. well I havent been to Parachute but have been exposed to a fair amount of Christian music/radio through friends. I really got that sense, like someone mentioned above, of inferior copycat clones of "secular" trends and bands...I guess this would be more down to friends with shitty taste, or that Christian radio is as garbage as yer ZMs and yer MoreFMs, generally?
yeh im not denying that there are definately 'copycat clone' christian bands around...i wouldn't say inferior though...unless we label every band that copies aspects of another band/style/sound/message as 'inferior' to the band that gave 'birth' to that style/sound/message...
i mean im sure Bob Marley didn't invent reggae/dub music and that doesn't make him inferior to the music he copied to develop his style...and it also doesn't make Jack Johnson, Ben Harper etc inferior musicians due to them creating the same/similar style of music.
but i certainly know what you mean...some bands will completely copy another bands style, use the same chord progressions and licks etc...i mean all the pop punk bands in the world basically sound the same right? but i guess if a 'christian' pop punk band arises (im sure there's plenty of them) they just get labelled as 'copycat clones' - what about 48May???...there's just as much if not more 'copycat clones' in the secular market.
//Bob Marley didn't invent reggae/dub music and that doesn't make him inferior to the music he copied to develop his style...and it also doesn't make Jack Johnson, Ben Harper etc inferior musicians due to them creating the same/similar style of music.
Righto, I think the biggest problem you're facing is that in saying such-and-such christian band is just as good as such-and-such non-christian band you usually mention a band that gets a lot of flak on nzm as well. The issue has very little to do with lyrics, or because they sound "loosely" like some other band. The issue is that the christian music that everybody's heard falls into genres that are despised with a passion by most of the indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards. The christian music that they haven't heard is stuff you're now comparing to bands that are despised with a passion.
And there's just so goddamned much of it churned out on the Edge or the Rock or whatever. More of the same? No thanks. If christians think that putting wholesome lyrics to a metal song is an acceptable alternative so their youth groups can replace all "the angry hate-filled" secular stuff in their collection then so be it, but don't try and peddle it at a bunch of people that don't mind the angry hate-filled (and more original) stuff, because they've already got plenty enough music to choose from. It's an underhanded form of preaching, and people aren't going to get converted just because the music is "just as good but with happier lyrics". They'll just end up feeling patronised.
hahahaha, and saying that Jack Johnson is comparable to Bob Marley is just asking for trouble.
(changes channel to the fight, sits back in easy-chair, grabs popcorn)
from my experience it's usually rather futile to challenge heather on matters she has obviously made her mind up about. but what the hell...i'll give it a go :p
//The issue is that the christian music that everybody's heard falls into genres that are despised with a passion by most of the indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards.//
"righto"
that basically depicts the ignorance of most of the 'indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards.' and in their case ignorance may be bliss?
we can't deny the fact that christian musicians are capeable of creating fantastic music...i mean look at the cliche example of U2 - one of the greatest rock bands ever. so have we established that fact?
i'm not trying to convince people who are already into the 'hate filled metal music' to consider a christian alternative. what im trying to say is that a christian metal band is just as capeable of producing fantastic metal music as some angry hate filled bogans. gee...most metal music you can't even hear what they're saying anyway, so chuck a christian metal band and a hate filled metal band in the same room and i challenge you to determine the difference. it's not a matter of who copied who? the first christian metal band was going hard in 1978. who knows...they may have had an influence on the development of angry hate filled metal music (by the way im not saying all metal music is angry and hate filled...i've seen some rather beautiful, poetic metal lyrics, they're big softies really!)
question: Alice Cooper was perhaps one of the most influential shock rockers...he created some great music (for those psychos who like that kinda stuff) does the fact that he's now a dedicated professing christian disintergrate any musical ability he once had? or is he still the same Alice Cooper musically as he was originally?...the ability to create quality music is not determined by faith.
//"righto" that basically depicts the ignorance of most of the 'indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards.' and in their case ignorance may be bliss?
//we can't deny the fact that christian musicians are capeable of creating fantastic music...i mean look at the cliche example of U2 - one of the greatest rock bands ever. so have we established that fact?
Again, an uphill battle. It's debatable whether U2 are one of the greatest rock bands ever; you're continually assuming that everyone does, or should, feel the same way about certain musicians as you.
I totally agree that plenty of music gets slagged off here that doesn't deserve it; but taking into consideration who you're addressing, you're not going to convince any of them to be less judgemental of christian music using POD, Creed, The Newsboys, Steriogram, Superchic, Brooke Fraser, Eight, Zed, etc etc etc as examples.
Basically I guess I'm just trying to say that it's pointless having this discussion here. You're just trawling through the same tired arguments that I've heard over and over for 15 years; hell, I've used a few of them in my time. I really hate to admit it but much of what manamana said about the church is right - it's not necessarily the musicians to blame, but church culture (unintentionally, I'm sure) channels musical tastes in a particular direction. It's like going to a university kitchen - doesn't matter what different meals they offer, they all end up tasting somehow the same.
And I might point out that I was fighting in support of the whole christian music doesn't suck debate. That might suggest I'm trying very hard to think it through from every angle, so I'm pretty insulted at the condescending tone of your posts. Go chuckle all you want at my ignorance and bullheadedness in your own time, I've been around long enough to have a fair idea what I'm talking about.
first, just wanna apologies, there was absolutely no intention of insulting you in my posts. and i feel bad that you might have taken offence.
*bends over to recieve a wooden spooning from heather* (don't worry...i'm not the type that actually enjoys it!)
haha i get your point heather. it is basically pointless having this discussion. all it comes down to really is opinion. but then again, a vast majority of nzm threads are based around opinion. however i guess it's just helpless attempting to alter peoples opinions on such a topic as this?
also i was not intending the 'ignorance' finger to be pointed at you heather. i'm well aware that you are no ignoramus when it comes to music. i was aiming that attack at the 'indie loving regulars' as i thought you were implying that they were 'one eyed indie lovers' and didn't appreciate music past the indie scene. if you ARE one of them...then sorry i kinda was pointing the finger at you slightly although i'm aware you have a much broader perception of music than that.
thanks for you input. it's always appreciated.
if you wanna backrub or some chocolate icecream or something to make up for you insultedness just let me know :)
peace and prosperity
//U2 are not christian rock, and striclty speaking neither are Zed. //
maybe not, but they both have christian musicians in the band and that is really what this thread is about. many of U2's songs are interpretations of scripture.
//Chocolate icecream please//
ummm...
....................................
/ / <---- that's a BIG bowl of imaginary chocolate ice-cream :D
/ /
/_______/
Fair enough, disciple. I wouldn't argue Sum 41 have anything going for them over a similarly derivative Christian pop-punk band - but, of course they're the ones that end up in the spotlight...
I'd agree that the Jack Johnson comparison is inappropriate (Jack Johnson is to me the "pop-punk" of acoustic singer-songwritering, if that makes any sense), however I don't think in a lot of circumstances music is inferior due to it arising partly from previous influences. Nirvana, The Strokes and Interpol all fit that bracket. The question is where are their Christian equivalents? Not in sound I mean, but in crafting something new and unique from previous bands and performers.
PS: Actually, you might like to check out Sufjan Stevens who I've heard a few tracks by. He's an American who performs this amazing orchestral folk, and his most recent album apparently delves into his Christian faith in a few tracks. It's been getting good reviews from some mainstream publications, in spite of that!
Christian bands:
their overall belief system constrains them as to what kind of self expression is acceptable and what isn't - and they make a consciouse effort to be positive in their lyrics and sound, which sucks the life out of it....
I dare any non christian out there to listen to life fm for more than half an hour and then say 'yay'
life fm does not speak for all christian music. i know christian bands such as Chevelle, POD, Blindside and Demon Hunter who will sing about exactly the same things as secular bands. just because they're christian doesn't mean they don't go through issues in life that suck...and it doesn't mean they can't sing about it either. they can just sing about it from the perspective that instead of "screw it all, life sucks, slit your wrists, it's not worth suffering for" they generally seem to sing of a more positive message of 'hope.'
...i don't even listen to life fm, i can't get reception where i live. that's just like saying all secular music sucks...if you listen to ZM for half an hour you will see my point. life fm no doubt only plays 'popular' christian music - alot of 'poular' music sucks be it christian or not.
My opinion of Christian musicians can be summed up in one word "Stryper". That's right kiddies the "Yellow and black attack" what a steaming pile of "talent" they were. But far be it from me to judge an entire genre on a single band so to the rest of them I say Yay.
Theirs reason to believe Stryper is a prime motivatior for the rise of Metallica.
In that James hated what he saw so much he became determined to "suceed".
Does this then make Stryper a good thing to have a round all you metallica Fans?
And to Hell with the Devil.
i hve read most of the parachute 05 thread and this one too. this debate is very interesting. i think that most bands just write songs about what they are into, what they love. do i think christians can produce good music yes of course they can and so can non-christians. metalica are very talented musicians gotta love those guitar solos! mxpx has an awesome drummer!
Comments
yay! :D
yes of course they are, there some great local christian bands where I live. But the problem with a lot of christian music comes down to the fact they're thinking like you are in this thread. They try and follow trends and keep up with all the modern popular bands, and end up being poor rehashed versions of them rather than new and creative.
how is that being like me in this thread :-(
...yeh i agree that they try and follow trends...but don't all bands to a certain extent? they incorporate aspects of music they like.
That's two different things - incorporate the music you like to form something new (good) and following trends (bad).
theyre not 2
different things
"""how is that being like me in this thread :-("""
not you, but the attitude of the thread, that need to break in and compare to everyone else, in return forgetting about all those vertues that make music fun and great and instead focussing on everything else.
point taken...
//that need to break in and compare to everyone else, in return forgetting about all those vertues that make music fun and great and instead focussing on everything else.//
that is precisely the point im trying to make with this thread...
//they had no singing (apart from some african chants that old Abraham 'teddy bear' chucked in from time to time)
Whoa. Was that heathen era Africa or post Western-exposure Africa?
aw shit i can't stop. I'm sorry dude it's nothing personal
HEY! it's jimi...AGAIN!
no worries bro...it's an honour to have such a fan as you :)
being christian has nothing to do with it, its your music ability/talent
I know a few good christian bands.
i invented this religion and i assure you all my people are good players.
I think christian music is pretty good. Music is all about expressing what you believe in and isn't that what christian music does?
Good grief - I can't believe we are still on this topic. Of course christians can produce great music, just as satanists, athiests, jews, buddists etc can. Being of a specific religion has nothing to do with it. Enough already.........
haha try explaining that to manamana...
Hmm, I think it depends on whether you're a group with Christians in it or a Christian group, if that makes any sense. All the Christian groups, a la Parachute, really do sound exactly the same somehow, be it lyrical content, earnest singing and performance, and a really conventional, non-threatening sound. I mean, Steriogram and Eight are both ostensibly mainstream, and have that same ghastly, bland effect on me. But then, I'm sure a lot of the groups I like have religious members and frequently delve into matters spiritual..what can I say? I think Christian rock sucks, as opposed to rock made by Christians. A confused Yay.
have you been to parachute?..
if you have you've either sat at mainstage the whole time and haven't had the decency to admire the extensive diversity in the music played there.
i see your point with maybe christian lyrics are often similar etc.
but how many songs in the world are written about falling in love with girls or taking drugs? can they too be written off as crap just because they incorporate the same theme/message?
Hmm. well I havent been to Parachute but have been exposed to a fair amount of Christian music/radio through friends. I really got that sense, like someone mentioned above, of inferior copycat clones of "secular" trends and bands...I guess this would be more down to friends with shitty taste, or that Christian radio is as garbage as yer ZMs and yer MoreFMs, generally?
yeh im not denying that there are definately 'copycat clone' christian bands around...i wouldn't say inferior though...unless we label every band that copies aspects of another band/style/sound/message as 'inferior' to the band that gave 'birth' to that style/sound/message...
i mean im sure Bob Marley didn't invent reggae/dub music and that doesn't make him inferior to the music he copied to develop his style...and it also doesn't make Jack Johnson, Ben Harper etc inferior musicians due to them creating the same/similar style of music.
but i certainly know what you mean...some bands will completely copy another bands style, use the same chord progressions and licks etc...i mean all the pop punk bands in the world basically sound the same right? but i guess if a 'christian' pop punk band arises (im sure there's plenty of them) they just get labelled as 'copycat clones' - what about 48May???...there's just as much if not more 'copycat clones' in the secular market.
//Bob Marley didn't invent reggae/dub music and that doesn't make him inferior to the music he copied to develop his style...and it also doesn't make Jack Johnson, Ben Harper etc inferior musicians due to them creating the same/similar style of music.
Righto, I think the biggest problem you're facing is that in saying such-and-such christian band is just as good as such-and-such non-christian band you usually mention a band that gets a lot of flak on nzm as well. The issue has very little to do with lyrics, or because they sound "loosely" like some other band. The issue is that the christian music that everybody's heard falls into genres that are despised with a passion by most of the indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards. The christian music that they haven't heard is stuff you're now comparing to bands that are despised with a passion.
And there's just so goddamned much of it churned out on the Edge or the Rock or whatever. More of the same? No thanks. If christians think that putting wholesome lyrics to a metal song is an acceptable alternative so their youth groups can replace all "the angry hate-filled" secular stuff in their collection then so be it, but don't try and peddle it at a bunch of people that don't mind the angry hate-filled (and more original) stuff, because they've already got plenty enough music to choose from. It's an underhanded form of preaching, and people aren't going to get converted just because the music is "just as good but with happier lyrics". They'll just end up feeling patronised.
hahahaha, and saying that Jack Johnson is comparable to Bob Marley is just asking for trouble.
(changes channel to the fight, sits back in easy-chair, grabs popcorn)
from my experience it's usually rather futile to challenge heather on matters she has obviously made her mind up about. but what the hell...i'll give it a go :p
//The issue is that the christian music that everybody's heard falls into genres that are despised with a passion by most of the indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards.//
"righto"
that basically depicts the ignorance of most of the 'indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards.' and in their case ignorance may be bliss?
we can't deny the fact that christian musicians are capeable of creating fantastic music...i mean look at the cliche example of U2 - one of the greatest rock bands ever. so have we established that fact?
i'm not trying to convince people who are already into the 'hate filled metal music' to consider a christian alternative. what im trying to say is that a christian metal band is just as capeable of producing fantastic metal music as some angry hate filled bogans. gee...most metal music you can't even hear what they're saying anyway, so chuck a christian metal band and a hate filled metal band in the same room and i challenge you to determine the difference. it's not a matter of who copied who? the first christian metal band was going hard in 1978. who knows...they may have had an influence on the development of angry hate filled metal music (by the way im not saying all metal music is angry and hate filled...i've seen some rather beautiful, poetic metal lyrics, they're big softies really!)
question: Alice Cooper was perhaps one of the most influential shock rockers...he created some great music (for those psychos who like that kinda stuff) does the fact that he's now a dedicated professing christian disintergrate any musical ability he once had? or is he still the same Alice Cooper musically as he was originally?...the ability to create quality music is not determined by faith.
sorry about the Jack Johnson comparisson.
//"righto" that basically depicts the ignorance of most of the 'indie-loving regulars that frequent these boards.' and in their case ignorance may be bliss?
//we can't deny the fact that christian musicians are capeable of creating fantastic music...i mean look at the cliche example of U2 - one of the greatest rock bands ever. so have we established that fact?
Again, an uphill battle. It's debatable whether U2 are one of the greatest rock bands ever; you're continually assuming that everyone does, or should, feel the same way about certain musicians as you.
I totally agree that plenty of music gets slagged off here that doesn't deserve it; but taking into consideration who you're addressing, you're not going to convince any of them to be less judgemental of christian music using POD, Creed, The Newsboys, Steriogram, Superchic, Brooke Fraser, Eight, Zed, etc etc etc as examples.
Basically I guess I'm just trying to say that it's pointless having this discussion here. You're just trawling through the same tired arguments that I've heard over and over for 15 years; hell, I've used a few of them in my time. I really hate to admit it but much of what manamana said about the church is right - it's not necessarily the musicians to blame, but church culture (unintentionally, I'm sure) channels musical tastes in a particular direction. It's like going to a university kitchen - doesn't matter what different meals they offer, they all end up tasting somehow the same.
And I might point out that I was fighting in support of the whole christian music doesn't suck debate. That might suggest I'm trying very hard to think it through from every angle, so I'm pretty insulted at the condescending tone of your posts. Go chuckle all you want at my ignorance and bullheadedness in your own time, I've been around long enough to have a fair idea what I'm talking about.
U2 are not christian rock, and striclty speaking neither are Zed.
first, just wanna apologies, there was absolutely no intention of insulting you in my posts. and i feel bad that you might have taken offence.
*bends over to recieve a wooden spooning from heather* (don't worry...i'm not the type that actually enjoys it!)
haha i get your point heather. it is basically pointless having this discussion. all it comes down to really is opinion. but then again, a vast majority of nzm threads are based around opinion. however i guess it's just helpless attempting to alter peoples opinions on such a topic as this?
also i was not intending the 'ignorance' finger to be pointed at you heather. i'm well aware that you are no ignoramus when it comes to music. i was aiming that attack at the 'indie loving regulars' as i thought you were implying that they were 'one eyed indie lovers' and didn't appreciate music past the indie scene. if you ARE one of them...then sorry i kinda was pointing the finger at you slightly although i'm aware you have a much broader perception of music than that.
thanks for you input. it's always appreciated.
if you wanna backrub or some chocolate icecream or something to make up for you insultedness just let me know :)
peace and prosperity
Chocolate icecream please.
/_ __
@ | @
U
~
//U2 are not christian rock, and striclty speaking neither are Zed. //
maybe not, but they both have christian musicians in the band and that is really what this thread is about. many of U2's songs are interpretations of scripture.
//Chocolate icecream please//
ummm...
....................................
/ / <---- that's a BIG bowl of imaginary chocolate ice-cream :D
/ /
/_______/
hahaha...ok that really didn't work at all!!!
feast you eyes on this then...sorry it's half eaten
my gift to you.
enjoy :D
[ external link ]
Oh crap!!!! that didn't work either i dont think...
here try this
i'm determined to get you some chocolate icecream!
[ external link ]
(suitably placated)
That's one kickarse icecream.
it does look tasty as aye!!
i want some...
i'm glad i have appeased you :) peace
Fair enough, disciple. I wouldn't argue Sum 41 have anything going for them over a similarly derivative Christian pop-punk band - but, of course they're the ones that end up in the spotlight...
I'd agree that the Jack Johnson comparison is inappropriate (Jack Johnson is to me the "pop-punk" of acoustic singer-songwritering, if that makes any sense), however I don't think in a lot of circumstances music is inferior due to it arising partly from previous influences. Nirvana, The Strokes and Interpol all fit that bracket. The question is where are their Christian equivalents? Not in sound I mean, but in crafting something new and unique from previous bands and performers.
PS: Actually, you might like to check out Sufjan Stevens who I've heard a few tracks by. He's an American who performs this amazing orchestral folk, and his most recent album apparently delves into his Christian faith in a few tracks. It's been getting good reviews from some mainstream publications, in spite of that!
//Of course christians can produce great music,//
Christian bands:
their overall belief system constrains them as to what kind of self expression is acceptable and what isn't - and they make a consciouse effort to be positive in their lyrics and sound, which sucks the life out of it....
I dare any non christian out there to listen to life fm for more than half an hour and then say 'yay'
life fm does not speak for all christian music. i know christian bands such as Chevelle, POD, Blindside and Demon Hunter who will sing about exactly the same things as secular bands. just because they're christian doesn't mean they don't go through issues in life that suck...and it doesn't mean they can't sing about it either. they can just sing about it from the perspective that instead of "screw it all, life sucks, slit your wrists, it's not worth suffering for" they generally seem to sing of a more positive message of 'hope.'
...i don't even listen to life fm, i can't get reception where i live. that's just like saying all secular music sucks...if you listen to ZM for half an hour you will see my point. life fm no doubt only plays 'popular' christian music - alot of 'poular' music sucks be it christian or not.
Try Crimson moonlight or Antestor, thats far from happy
My opinion of Christian musicians can be summed up in one word "Stryper". That's right kiddies the "Yellow and black attack" what a steaming pile of "talent" they were. But far be it from me to judge an entire genre on a single band so to the rest of them I say Yay.
Theirs reason to believe Stryper is a prime motivatior for the rise of Metallica.
In that James hated what he saw so much he became determined to "suceed".
Does this then make Stryper a good thing to have a round all you metallica Fans?
And to Hell with the Devil.
hahaha! Stryper were horribly brilliant!
i saw a band perform a tribute to Stryper - it was so hilarious!!
to hell with the devil!
hahaha! Stryper were horribly brilliant!
i saw a band perform a tribute to Stryper - it was so hilarious!!
to hell with the devil! /m/ /m/
hmmm...i just did the same post twice.
maybe manamana was right...maybe i truly am stupid? :o
Stryper were awesome because those christian who got hooked on stryper eventually got hooked on guns n roses / metallica / drugs / devil worship etc
so really the were working for the devil in sheeps clothing
I still love them though
"so freely surrender"
Just to add, I just realised that Johnny Cash's "The Man Comes Around" is the single greatest 'christian' song ever.
yes they could produce quality music as long as they leave god and religion out of it
oh dude...your a bit behind the play man. have you read the rest of this thread and the little debates in the 'Parachute 05' thread???
nah, too much jesus involved in the lyrics :P (watch south park)
FAITH + 1!!!!
none of the greatest bands of all time were/are made up of christians.
that's debateable.
i hve read most of the parachute 05 thread and this one too. this debate is very interesting. i think that most bands just write songs about what they are into, what they love. do i think christians can produce good music yes of course they can and so can non-christians. metalica are very talented musicians gotta love those guitar solos! mxpx has an awesome drummer!