. . . newborns scare me

no im not looking to start an arugement with any one,

nice writing rdor that makes alot sense,

its as if the personality and all that is a wonderful illusion that ends with the "death" of the physical form

so i wonder if all our "little sparks that come from the divine flame" are the same thing?

whats your feelings on oness and unity rdor?

[ http://www.orkid.co.nz ]

// and if its pretty bad it goes to hell.

Not true.
According to the bible, you could be a really good person, but if you don't believe in God, you go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

dotcom

OMIGOD! God's a prolog program!

WHERE ARE YOU FREAK?

Not really sure why I'm getting into this, but all your examples of people who god doesn't love are old testament and superceded by Jesus' message of love. And not that people ever talk about it much, but free will is actually not part of most christian theology.

////god created the wordly man to make the righteous appear more pleasing to him in comparison

God created rdor to make other posters look rational and intelligent?//

that's my interpretaion of the bibles message. It isn't what I blelieve.

A lot of the christians of my acquaintance believe hell is a metaphor, and don't believe in it as a reality, so that's not a problem at all from that perspective. (As to what does happen to those who don't go to heaven, I haven't asked).

Take Islam for example, as far as I can tell an Isalmic way of life is an ideal way of living. A way that best pleases god. You don’t’ necessarily have to call god allah and follow strict Islamic legalisms to enter heaven. It makes allowances for those who have never had the opportunity to convert, and even those who practice other monotheistic faiths. As long as you believe in one god, do you best to be good, ask for forgiveness for sin etc. then life after death might be possible for non muslims.

But with christianty it’s all or nothing… no way to god but through jesus, and tough for those billions who lived and died ignorant.

so THIS is the where the party's at!! why did no-one invite me earlier!!??
rdor, i must say i am very impressed with your knowledge of the bible and what seems like a convincing arguement. were you once a christian yourself or are you just the type that's into researching different theories...? You obviously belive that God does exist, or have believed that God exists. I don't see how people can deny it really.

I think the idea that God loves everyone and gives everyone the opportunity to be saved is no misinterpretation but the truth. The operative words in that sentence are "gives everyone the OPPORTUNITY to be saved."
Take this metaphorical explanation...imagine yourself as a judge in a murder trial. The person being tried for murder is the person that you love the most in the whole world. There is undeniable evidence that this person you love is guilty of the murder...as the Judge who has to pass the sentence you desperately don't want to send this person you love so much into jail for the rest of their life but because of the law you have no choice in the matter, even though it hurts you to do so. When it comes down to it, it was their choice to murder their victim, they did this of their own free will and for their crime they have to do the time...
This is Gods predicament.
I hadn't really read much about Esau until you mentioned him...so i may not be completely accurate. However what i did read said nothing about God hating Esau before he was born. In my translation of the bible it says 'the descendants of your older son(Esau) will serve the descendants of your younger son.(Jacob)' To me that doesn't portray hate. It shows me that Gods plan for Esau was different than his plan for Jacob.

and old Judas...hmm another toughy, ur good rdor! again i think it comes down to free will. (yes u can say, ohhh stupid dum bum christians always fall back on that as their ultimate line of defence.) any of Jesus disciples could have fallen into temptation to betray him...the large sum of money would have undoubtedly been tempting! Judas gave into this...when he realised what he had done he made the conscious DECISION to kill himself. Judas could have made the decision to live with what he'd done (i mean the fact that Jesus died was kinda unavoidable...it wasn't Judas's fault he died, that was inevitable, Judas just became overwhelmed with guilt, that is what led to his suicide.) he could have asked forgiveness for his betrayal...who knows, if Judas had stuck around maybe Jesus would have reapperared to him rather than Thomas the doubter to let Judas know that he was forgiven for what he had done...?

Also it clearly states in the bible (not sure where exactly) that people will be judged according to what they have heard/been exposed to/know. eg. some primitive tribe in africa who has absolutely no knowledge of chritianity or the bible will be judged according to this. Whereas some bogan from Wellington who has a dusty bible in his bookshelf, a church down the road, christian mates, christian television and such a beautiful, safe country would be judged harsher. Fair or unfair? It ses it in the bible somewhere...
That's a hard one about the extent of free will too...like it says God knows our thoughts before we have even thought them. But i think there is a difference to thinking thoughts...and making decisions. Like when i was sitting in church the night i became a christian there were TONNES of thoughts going through my head like "i like partying..." "wot will my mates think of me if i do this?" but i think it was ME who had to make the decision to give my life over to God that night independently.

...ohhh man im tired, i think i've said enough for now.
rdor, i must say i fully respect your arguement and theological knowledge. but surely you know christianity stretches beyond the historical records in the bible. how do you explain miracles (which still do happen today despite the ignorance of most people), people speaking in tounges, prophecy, the uncontainable joy you experience when praising God...
man no-one can prove that stuff right or wrong really...but when it comes down to it, if i die and find out my faith is a scham(i don't belive it is)...what have i lost? i have a happy life, cool friends, good family, i've had cool experiences. But say i decide to give up on this faith i have to "live it up" here on earth and i die and find out that my oringal faith was for real...God is real, God really does love me...what have i lost then?...eternity in heaven.
i think you have more theological knowledge than me rdor, i would love to learn more though.
continue to challenge me on my beliefs, it only strenghthens me. cheers, have a nice night, im off to bed.
God bless
[freak] over & out.

//I for one think it’s ridiculous.

I feel the same way about the earth and everything on it being created within seven days, (What about the millions of years of dinosaurs etc before we came about?) and that the first woman was made from a rib???

Seven of "their days" could be thouthands of our years, its a metaphor. Woman was made from a rib - God probably took DNA from a man's rib or something like that, to "construct" the first woman.

Also look at this world, our body for example. We have eyes, we can see, ears - we hear, so many organs, nearves, feelings, self-couchusness, and most of all the brain - the most complicated thing ever. Everything functions perfectly in harmony. No human ever came close to constructing anything similar, on that scale. And thats just 1 example, there are millions of other things, like space, stars, planets, black holes, all functioning perfectly in harmony.

This all happened by accident? From some "big bang" from nothing?

I find it much easier to believe there is a GOD, not man's theories.

//Seven of "their days" could be thouthands of our years, its a metaphor.

Okay, but that one of my biggest problems - How much of the bible is a metaphor? and how much are we to take literally? - or you could read the whole thing strictly as one or the other?

//I find it much easier to believe there is a GOD, not man's theories.

To me God is one of man's theories.

(should point out that I don't mind at all what people believe in, my girlfriend and best mates are all christians, i'm not and never have been, but it doesn't and shouldn't get in the way of anything)

//Also look at this world, our body for example. We have eyes, we can see, ears - we hear, so many organs, nearves, feelings, self-couchusness, and most of all the brain - the most complicated thing ever. Everything functions perfectly in harmony. No human ever came close to constructing anything similar, on that scale. And thats just 1 example, there are millions of other things, like space, stars, planets, black holes, all functioning perfectly in harmony.

Not sure where I’m going with this but –
not everything does function in perfect harmony – babies are born blind, deaf, mental / physically disabled, sick, premature – stillborn.
If we are considered to be ‘alive’ at conception, why do so many pregnancies fail within the first few months?
Hardly what would be called perfect? – is God making mistakes?

As for stars & space etc, again how do we know if it’s all functioning perfectly in harmony? – going back to the Years to days ratio – millions of our years could be a split second for the universe, it could all be spinning around in utter chaos?

My main feelings about religions come down to - Why do we need to have an answer to everything?

Hmmm . . . . yeah, not sure where that went, but oh well?

//My main feelings about religions come down to - Why do we need to have an answer to everything?

You know - I reckon if you're perfectly happy just enjoying life and not concerning yourself with the Big Questions of existence since after all you'll probably never work it out anyway then that's a fair call. I tried taking that approach for a while, and it did my head in. The best thing about all the years that I was a christian wasn't that I got answers, but that it posed lots of really really great questions. I guess some people just won't be satisfied.

Well then - just depends on the questions you're asking dunnit.. What's the problem with offering an answer to the question "who made us?" Maybe you're referring more to the problem of when people are too scared to admit religion doesn't have an answer - instead of saying "I have no bloody idea" a lot of people say "you shouldn't ask questions like that - just have faith". Hmmm? (peers over glasses) :P

//not sure why

ha ha or because i can't bloody write or spell properly ha ha ha

fuck this is boring. perhaps we should rename the site nzchristian.com

That's not very christian of you cat!

cats, and all animals for that matter have no souls, so of course would find this boring