If you're an up and coming band and support a well known band, say for example Tadpole and they charge $15 on the door, do you think the support band should get a ccut, if so how much. Should there be some sort of common law to apply - like the support band gets 10% of the door or a set fee of $100?
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You should get <i>something</i>, as ...
You should get something, as long as the gig makes a profit. There's a lot of costs going into big gigs, advertising, production etc. Once costs are taken out, you should get some kind of split, whether it's 80:20, 75:25, more or less - depends on your contribution to the gig - are you bringing your own fans or riding on the big act's coat-tails? Are you doing anything to help with the gig, like putting up posters, handing out flyers, setting up other promo, or running the door?
there wasn't any promotion as such, ...
there wasn't any promotion as such, the support band only had 5 days notice and brought at least $200 worth of crowd. But the band share(s) of the door seems to depend on the guy on the door and who he's working for..
I think the support act should get a ...
I think the support act should get a cut of the headlines fee/profits.
it would be agreed on at an earlier point.
If it was a 'real' concert a ...
If it was a 'real' concert a percentage of the door would go directly to APRA and would be paid out to each of the bands based on the songs (ie. if the opening act played five songs they might get ,$2500, $500 per song. The big international act might play 20 songs and get $10,000 for their efforts).
If this isn't the case and we're talking about a gig at the kings arms or something I think the bigger act should pay an equal amount to the other acts. It only seems fair and in some cases support acts can bring bigger crowds than a signed, touring band.
//If it was a 'real' concert a ...
//If it was a 'real' concert a percentage of the door would go directly to APRA and would be paid out to each of the bands //
I'm not so sure about this at all. As I understand it the performers, if they are APRA members, would submit Live Performance Returns to APRA. APRA would then pay out to the songwriters whatever is due to them at the end of the return period. After all the bands might be playing other peoples songs; APRA is concerned with the rights of the songwriter not the performer. I think that APRA collects this live performance fee from the venue ... so much per song performed I guess.
The payment for the actual performance is a matter between whoever is putting on the show, the promoter, venue owner, whoever. And yes, I think that support acts should get some financial recognition of the fact that they have contributed to the success of the show. CLearly this is something that needs to be addressed before the performance. I have no idea of what the going rate might be. But I think it only fair that if the headliner is getting a pretty healthy fee then the support acts should also get a cut.
Having said that there also needs to be consideration given to the fact that the exposure the support act may get from supporting a bigger act is of value to the support act.
Where there is a PROMOTER that promoter ...
Where there is a PROMOTER that promoter has to pay a (small) percentage of the door sales directly to Apra, the money that is collected is divided evenly between the "songs" played and distributed to the songwriters directly. This is separate from the annual live returns pool.
All promoters and venues are obliged to ...
All promoters and venues are obliged to pay Live Performance royalties directly to APRA, which is then paid back to the bands when they submit their LPR's. Not all venues/promoters do, but generally those are the places you'd not wanna play anyways.
If the venue is paying you. Its always ...
If the venue is paying you. Its always good to consider an all you can drink policy as payment. :)
agreed. Been there, done that. Thank ...
agreed. Been there, done that. Thank you Notes bar, formerly of K rd
yeah thanks massey university. Sorry ...
yeah thanks massey university. Sorry about the incident with the toilet sink and all....
If a bar gives you a $100 bar tab in ...
If a bar gives you a $100 bar tab in leu of cash, what you recieve is $100 worth of drinks. What the bar pays for those $100 worth of drinks is probably more like $40. I say take the $100 in cash. Otherwise it's a phony deal. (and then you can buy your drinks wherever you want to)
you try explaining that to a bunch of ...
you try explaining that to a bunch of half cut musicians. haha they will always choose the beer. :)
friend of mine organizes shows- divides ...
friend of mine organizes shows- divides profits equally amongst all individuals on stage on the nite
I've alaways prefered the system of ...
I've alaways prefered the system of dividing it evenly between the bands.
Often for touring bands in NZ... they ...
Often for touring bands in NZ... they can make $1000 on the door in one town and then lose $2000 in the next town. If the headlining band tells the support band that they're not going to get paid, then that's fair enough. Part of how the supporting bands get known is through playing with bigger bands... it helps give you profile in scene.
I think it is totally fair for a band like Tadpole (at the moment) to not pay the support band. If you were to play with Pacifier on the tour of their next album, and you got more people than them to the gig.... then that would totally be fair to complain! But I highly doubt you'd be getting ripped off... You're doing them a favour and helping them play the next town.
Attitudes like that get noone anywhere, ...
Attitudes like that get noone anywhere, and it does nothing to support the industry. It's hard enough to make a dollar in this industry as it is is. If somebody thinks you are good enough to support them, then they should think that you are good enough to get paid. It's the fact that bands are prepared to say nothing when they don't get paid that makes others think they can get away without paying them. Have a bit of faith in yourself, and in others.
Whether Tadpole is possibly about to lose money in the next town is Tadpoles concern, it shouldn't mean that you should end up out of pocket- they are, after all doing the same thing that you are doing only with more profile.
You shouldn't be getting on the stage at a gig like that without some sort of a deal worked out.
couldn't agree more dragstrip....
couldn't agree more dragstrip.
A support slot with a band with profile ...
A support slot with a band with profile will get you a lot further than $100 for the band.
Sure, if you play in a band and you can pull a crowd... you should be getting paid. But it depends who's helping out who.
I highly doubt that the band touring is making a killing on the gig anyway. Bands tour to promote themselves or a single/album... not to make money. For the average NZ band out there with an album, breaking even on tour is doing pretty good.
If you want to make money playing in a local band, play covers to 50 year old woman trying to score!
I take your point on that alien, I know ...
I take your point on that alien, I know how expensive touring can be but I also look at it this way. We all know about Newtons first law and things falling back down to earth... who really wants to be remembered as the assholes who stiffed the now more successful opening acts, while on their way down, even if it was only for a few dollars?
What about the theory of giving a little in the hope it pays off down the line in goodwill?
$50 for petrol makes a huge difference. ...
$50 for petrol makes a huge difference. I have never been rejected asking for petrol money. All it takes is a bit of communication... hearing from where they're coming from, discussing where you're coming from and meeting at the line.
What is right will depend so much on ...
What is right will depend so much on the circumstances. The key thing is to agree at the outset what the arrangement is so that people don't go pissy afterwards.
Many of the above points are valid, and the arrangement should be a pre-agreed % of take or fee based on (amongst other things):
What the support band contributes (eg: promotion, pulling local crowd, backline equipment for touring bands etc.)
What the support band gains from the gig (exposure to audience/ new fans/ publicity/ profile/ sexdrugsandalcohol)
The support band needs to weigh up its expectations/ requirements based on what they expect to contribute and/or gain and to communicate with the other band(s) and/or the venue (as appropriate) to ensure those expectations are met (or at least discussed/ understood/ acknowledged).
But bear in mind that your attitude may influence future gigs/ supports you get offered. Taking a hard line is fine if you hold all the cards and you're established and can play when and where you want. On the other hand don't let people walk over you and take advantage of you/ your gear/ your time/ your talent all the time if there's nothing in it (not just $) for you.
Nice comments....
Nice comments.
If you're in a band and you find it ...
If you're in a band and you find it fun to play shows with touring bands then why don't you just do it for free for the fun and experience and conncections you'll gain and wait untill you yourself are the touring band, then you can reap the cash money benifits. just an idea. If your band is a source of income you're dependant on then of course you'll feel differently I'm sure.
the- music- business. Which word is ...
the- music- business. Which word is giving you the most trouble?
The music lets do this for fun cause we're all really happy worshipping others and don't want to step up the ladder towards them. Sorry dude if this is you, it doesn't take anything away from you if it is, but music business has a much nicer ring to it.
Also before anyone says anything yes I have played quite a few gigs without pay and yes I know this is the reality of nz music. However I reiterate my side of this discussion. If there is money to be had the opening acts deserve a cut.
[ http://www.ishtar.co.nz ]
i have no doubt that they deserve it ...
i have no doubt that they deserve it but id say playing as a support band to a bigger act has so many other pluses that asking for pay almost seems rude to me (but they're definitly not undeservent) If a band wants to make some money they need to go put on shows themselves or play with other regional bands and when they're lucky enough to grab a supporting role to a touring band good on 'em, but doin that is prolly not the bestest way to make the muuuuullah.
//If there is money to be had the ...
//If there is money to be had the opening acts deserve a cut.
Depends on the circumstances:
If it's an out of town band playing a smallish pub gig - let them have the $, they'll need it.
If the headliners are putting on a large gig (500+) & you usually play to 50 people - really the only favour you're doing them is giving the punters a warm up band, you're the ones getting an opportunity to play infront of 500 people who may show up at your next pub gig.
I think all you should expect is a token $50-100 to cover petrol/a beer, and getting you're mates names on the door.
On the other hand - if you're at a similar popularity level or attracting 25+% of the audience you should expect something representative of that.
Even then you've got to remember who's organising/paying for the gig - paying for promotion, sound/lighting guys, etc. They're the ones taking the financial risks so they should be rewarded, not the band that rocks up on the night & does a 20 minute set.
i totally agree, in a bussiness the guy ...
i totally agree, in a bussiness the guy that takes the risk deserves the reward.
"Even then you've got to remember ...
"Even then you've got to remember who's organising/paying for the gig - paying for promotion,
sound/lighting guys, etc. They're the ones taking the financial risks so they should be rewarded, not the band that rocks up on the night & does a 20 minute set."
Said so well!
me no like bands that just rock up and ...
me no like bands that just rock up and play. i could never do that, if im invited to play somewhere advertise till i die cause i feel partly responcible to the show being a sucess- ya know?
we're not going to see eye to eye on ...
we're not going to see eye to eye on this alien so I'm going to bow out on this one. Keep in mind though that a band doesn't just appear out of the box with a shitload of songs written, fully rehearsed and (normally) without at least a small but loyal following. Most bands spend a long time getting their shit together so they can put on a good show and will make to effort to advertise whether it be by email lists, txt, posting on web sites, poster runs, word of mouth... whatever. Maybe it is different with some of the punk bands you largely work with but we put in a shitload of time, not to mention most of our surpluss income (on good gear, maintainance etc) making sure we have a good sound, a polished show and bums on seats when the show starts.
[ http://www.ishtar.co.nz ]
hmmm... but is it costing you anything ...
hmmm... but is it costing you anything to play? You'd have bought the gear & practiced anyway. It's great that you do your bit to promote the gig to friends & put up posters, but the only cost to you is time.
Touring bands (like the example given - tadpole) are giving up their income & paying a shit load to make it happen. A tour is an incredibly expensive thing to do.
Example: last weekend I had a touring band sleep on my floor - they'd borrowed $ from their record company to get from A to B & to hire the people needed in each town. They have to recoup the costs of the tour & pay for everything else themselves (food, accomodation, etc), without any other income. One of them had $16 to last 2 weeks! You've got a job - music is a hobby for you, you don't need the $ like they do.
Sorry, I'm ranting. I just get pissy over bands demanding "their cut" - I just think it's important to recognise that basically all fulltime nz musicians are giving up their income to bring us nz music, & we should support them in anyway we can: buy them a beer, buy a t-shirt, play for free... whatever, ya know?
Its their choice to give up their day ...
Its their choice to give up their day jobs.
& it's your decision as to whether you ...
& it's your decision as to whether you support them... "What about the theory of giving a little in the hope it pays off down the line in goodwill?"
hope that didn't read like an attack ...
hope that didn't read like an attack to you mr ishtar - I hear ya, I just don't agree, that's all.
Thats cool I get that...
Thats cool I get that
the band i was in in high school played ...
the band i was in in high school played with head like a hole one night and when they heard their manager wasn't paying us they paid us in weed and mushrooms.
Yo is that Carter?...
Yo is that Carter?
yeah...are you the guy who e mailed ...
yeah...are you the guy who e mailed last week?
I am indeedly, nice to see ya on this ...
I am indeedly, nice to see ya on this fine board. The album stuff is all going well witht ehauckland shows and that? where can i get hold of it?
its out on the 24th.......and as for ...
its out on the 24th.......and as for this support band thing....we've always made sure the band playing with us get something...whether we buy them drinks or give them cash (if there is any) .... when we open for someone it sucks to get nothing when the venue is obviously full so we don't want to do that to other bands.......and its just a small thing but we always refer to the opening band as the band who are playing with us......just seems..i don't know....less US plus them if you know what i mean.....shit i dont know what I mean but i am sure that i have a point in there somewhere.......support bands should always get something because they generally bring in people to your gigs especially if you are playing out of town somewhere......and blah blah blah...god...i'm boring myself.....
hmmmm......
hmmmm...
why hhhhhhmmmmm mate.........
why hhhhhhmmmmm mate......
ohhh...no reason, simply read your wee ...
ohhh...no reason, simply read your wee statement, pondered...."hmmmm'd" ....then went back to work to work to earn some mulla...heh heh heh...
If yr bitching about not being paid as ...
If yr bitching about not being paid as an "underling" original band to support a well known act, you're in the music game for the wrong reason, IMO.