Reforming Electoral Funding Laws
I applaud certain members of the Labour Party for attempting to re-jig the rules around what we may term , Campaign Financing.
The problem is they have pretty much chickened out of doing the real stuff, and there is enough loopholes to drive the #5 Southshore through it.
If someone or something wishes to "donate" or should that be invest in a Political Party, or their individual businesses , then clearly this should be Public Information. I cannot see this as undemocratic and I can't quite see how the usual suspects bemoaning the fall of Democracy can either.
So it is no surprise to even the partially informed that the public leader of the naysayers is a former ACT MP. If ever there was a political force reliant on Cash for Policy this must be it. How gullible to they think the general population? Surely their entire policy has been subservient to business interests and anything disrupting the cash flow will be attacked.
Don't be fooled. The best Democracy Money can buy really goes by the system with a capital F.
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Comments
I see the Herald has gone all front page on this.
I'm more than a little skeptical about their motives, given their ownership.
still the re-write is shit, but I am keen to see some tightening of the regs.
Key's soundbite was laughable on the News tonight.
"we will repel" when elected. I mean it's nice to have one policy different to Labour's but it's all hot air from the blue corner given even a cursory glance at their funding history.
foal30 wrote: "we will repel" when elected.
Ha! I know this was just a typo, bloke. But it's a funny one, because it's probably true. I've no doubt they will be repulsive--elected or not!
seems much of a muchness seeing as today the government handed the NZ primeminister the discretionary power to designate the national party or anyone else for that matter as terrorists.
nice law
good luck with the exorcisms,
Family First advertising on the Rock today against this bill.
protest on Saturday
there is a real unwillingness to acknowledge that we have always had people/citizens removed from the democratic process.
the commonality in these groups is most likely economic opportunities (or lack of).
funny how now certain people are up in arms.
as for the new terror updates
what I joke
and I found myself agreeing with Rodney Hide. strange times indeed.
Yea, Rodney hide for el presidente
when i read transcripts from the 'terrorists' sounds, like stoners developing a movie plot.
//August 17, a suspect talks of killing Mr Key after the next election: "Get someone to assassinate the prime minister, the new one, next year's one. Just been in office five days, bang ... Yeah, John Key ... just drop a bomb ... Just wait till he visits somewhere and just blow them ... They won't even find you."
'next year's one'
'they won't even find you'
They obviously had their best men on it.
seems a little like this:
with a touch of:
and a couple of tabs of the old:
WMD’s in the ureweras?
It’s pretty clear which direction the terror is coming from in New Zealand
And protesting it now seems too little, too late,
Ruatoki was simply a red herring to get these amendments through faster (through, not passed)
No repeal in site
Now there are calls to increase surveillance of electronic communications
History shows the 911 aftermath was used as a means for imperialist expansion
History shows the 911 aftermath was manipulated to lockdown the rights of western citizens
That was how democracy was edged out in the new world.
Cunning
Helen Clark doesn’t care about the ordinary new Zealander, i don't think she sees herself as an ordinary new zealander, she’s targeting that UN job and she’s prepared to allow international forces to interfere in NZ legislation as much as is necessary to secure that position.
I wish Helen good luck
I think she deserves to be head of the UN, despite selling New Zealand down the river.
In fact it suits her purpose
Because when she finally steps up to the podium to take that, her job
People are gonna look at her track record, other world leaders that is
And they see one of most heavily legislated countries on earth
They see a woman who has successfully enticed her population from a beautiful beach into a jail cell, without anything resembling a majority so much as batting an eyelid
And being world leaders they’ll say, “wow helen, please tell, how did you manage to pull that off?”
And she’ll ask them to confirm she's got the job and then tell them this
“if you can convince your people, that the leaders are incompetent at protecting peoples’ rights, then the voting population just basically, how to say, stops giving a fuck about their rights”
back onto topic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P96VcHcg3zM
election spending, the most well spent money of all
"Middle New Zealand marches"
have a fuck
despite the pains the reporter went to outline or in fact ram down the viewers throat about how normal or M.O.R. the protesters are/were the sound-bite was with
Christine Rankin
surely one of the far-rights most visible commentators.
might have shot yourself in the foot there 3 News.
Press outs one organizer as National Party campaign manger for Wellington Central
the other is former Act Party treasurer
Recently watched the excellent doco those two Irish guys did where they were in Hugo Chavez's palace at the time of the coup to oust him, this kind of rousing of "middle NZ" seems very similar to what the big business interests did there.
if you got the name of documentary great please.
my man Minto gives this Law the going over in today's Press.
"Don't vote, business always wins".
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. Excellent primarily because it's using heaps and heaps of first-hand footage by the documentary makers who were in the palace at the time of the coup and contrasting it with what was seen on TV.
Don't watch it if you don't want to see people being shot in the head in the middle of a demonstration. Real blood's not much like action movie blood, eh?
since 12% of the population pay almost half the tax the government takes, then I think it's fair they have some influence over who gets to spend their money. After all the current government has been using their money to 'buy' elections with unlimited welfare and an increasing number of civil servants reliant on the state for an income.
yeah, so lets forget this bit about democracy
the organizers of the protests are operating under misleading labeling.
why should people who supposedly pay more tax have more say?
one man one vote?
or is that not worth much anymore
it's a quandary
the current Government is terrible
the opposition is even worse
buying elections with welfare
yes, like tax cuts for the rich and companies, little or no Electoral Law, smashing the unions, eliminating collective bargaining, eliminating public holidays, raising the age of retirement, no minimum wage, youth rates, putting in GST so the top earners pay even less tax, no H&S workplace policy....
what say you
if unions can do de-facto electioneering for labour then why can't the wealthy get involved? We still have one vote per person last time I looked, how does election spending change that? Give people some credit, we aren't all vacuous spunges absorbing whatever advertising is thrown our way.
Give people some credit, we aren't all vacuous spunges absorbing whatever advertising is thrown our way.
I agree with this. I'm all for crazed & indignant fatcats spending all their discretionary income on attack-dog pamphlets that I throw straight in the bin, or quietly slipping laundered millions to the national party's champagne breakfast attended by people that were voting national anyway, or billboard campaigns that I scorn...
After all the brouhaha that the EB pamphlet caused, how much of the labour & greens' voter base did it undermine? Really? I think Labour are doing a good enough job of that themselves.
heather and rdor
my compliments
your vote was never worth much once labour and national got comfy with each other, well before i was born.
the Trade Union's are democratic bodies whose members vote on where resources go.
I would say this is dissimilar to individual donations
this is is not to say it is not a form of cash for policy.
just a more transparent one, maybe?
you miss the point
the claim is not that people are vacuous sponges
more about access to publicizing policy/directives/preferences.
you know exactly what this means in a one person one vote system
I'm actually a little surprised you can be bothered agitating on this.
on any level, strict mandates surrounding business and policy can only increase fundamental democratic process.
don't you mean ....can only increase fundamental undemocratic process?
foal are you saying that government telling people how much the can spend is democratic?
are you actually admitting that money wins elections?
if so
then
1 why are the national party not in power?
2 why vote at all?
or is that you hope to be able to spread the word on your name and address?
no I mean what I say
secure and transparent laws around campaign funding is democratic
slush funds and anon donations = cash for policy.
of course money wins elections
as does shooting people or taking to them with machetes for voting for the wrong team.
also saying vote for Fatah or Contra or we will invade or cut off all aid if you vote Hamas or Sandinista.
as for why isn't National in power...look at your own post...and play spot the difference. it's the old Chomsky joke, one party, two factions, of the big business party.
Key has wholesale grabbed Labour policy
as he is new and shiny it might work
I often ask why vote. but the issue at hand is over the means we run the process and this should be very important. hopefully.
Labour probably received as much funding from the Roundtable in 1990 as National did.This says we will financially reward those who most do our bidding. ECA anyone.No member of society who is an employee could in their right mind actually vote or support in any way this legislation. Yet, given the narrowness of policy on offer at that election (and absolutely no cries of No Democracy were being heard then) the working poor got hit with the worst Law in this country's history BAR NONE. The ramifacations of this 12 years of far right lunacy we live with every day and if what you want is the purpose of the Democratic convention to be solely at the beck and call of the Captains of Industry then that is a pretty sad state of affairs.
Billboard Campaign
but if that is the only platform you see what impression do you form. If you choose to not believe the residual effect of propaganda/indoctrination/infomercial/opinion/editorial/news then fine.
Labour are free to undermine themselves at will. I was surprised at how many people took the EB pamphlet at face value, little thought went into thinking about about why this is being published.and this is important, as important as the Pledge Card fiasco, more $ = more opportunity to subvert the supposed free and democratic process. This should be obvious.
isn't subverting the supposed free and democratic process what new zealand's all about these days?
//ECA anyone.No member of society who is an employee could in their right mind actually vote or support in any way this legislation.//
well that depends on whether you want to work hard or hide behind a union. :)
//of course money wins elections//
But money can come from the left just as much as the right. A large number of donors giving a small amount can even the odds. In the ned it's just advertising, it's influence directly correlates to how stupid people are. Just look at where the unions get their money from, and please don't suggest that unions are democratic just becuase they 'represent' more people, I've been to union meetings.
if I had of replied individually I would have got more points
maybe
why is electioneering different to fast food
or any form of advertising
why do people drink Coke
'cos it's every fucking where
and it's advertised every place
I don't want a drink I want a Coke
privilege and opportunity is what sets Capitalism aside form other systems
attempts to limit this may in fact increase freedoms
instead of People continually voting against their best interests.
i see wherre your coming from
ultimately
the only winners from this legislation
will be lawyers
and lawyers suck
democracy doesn't win
in court
we've seen it all in US 2000
if you're serious about addressing this issue
you've picked a pretty rough draft to send to the to send upstairs
basically
it's not something
that they can police effectively in the short term to ensure the legislation would really have any impact
because the law's gonna be broken again and again
because that's what happens in new zealand
so
you delegislate it
and let fate play its course
and wherever the money wants to go, free up the passage
of air to the lungs
and you'll find
a supernatrual state of affairs
expressing the country's natural persuasion
we studied advvertising in standard 3
just have faith
that your fellow voter
is less retarded than me
if the law is being broken too much
then the law is probably wrong for the people
if 5000 are protesting
then who is taking care of their kids?
they take the kids to the protest?
what happens if len richards is there?
they take out a restraining order barring len to within a kilometer of peaceful gatherings with name supression
it's obvious
that you've got more laws than the average person is capable of following
how many of us break the law?
how difficult should it be not to break the law?
do we need to make it more difficult still, not to break the law?
money form small donors
this is sort of my point Sir
you have lots of people enacting democratic or political will
versus one person paying out
and yes it is just advertising
and we do have Laws around advertising
like firecrackers
it is likely that representing more people is more likely to increase democracy
what are you comparing it to?
the AGM of the Board of Directors?
Unions get their money by associations of working people freely joining them
despite the vast majority of employers doing everything in their power to stop them or circumnavigate their rights/access.
are you implying this is undemocratic?
or is Gaddaffi and Castro shallow funding my lifestyle?
//are you implying this is undemocratic?//\
the union heirachy openly flout their political bias and lobby their members to support labour/left policy (on things unrelated to employment law). Most people at these meetings - those that bother to attend - just go along with it. Whether they end up voting labour just because their union tells them to is another question. I'd suggest that people aren't as easily influenced as you think. And by the way if it's mob/majority rule then how are the wealthy, the self employed etc supposed to have their interests represented in parliament at all? Don't they have the right to try, to at least financially prop up a party that best represents them? I mean you'd be the last to support majority rule when it comes to race relations, but on this apparently the minority don't count and shouldn't even have the right to give away their cash to whoever they will.
No I do not have confidence that behavioral stimulus is somehow suspended in election time.
I offer no stats
interests can be addressed by attempting to rally people to your belief structure or options. Paying them to do so is possibly not democratic. In fact some call this corruption. but if thats the price of freedom? as for minority...well we live by the majority vote...I'm OK with this, as I am in agitation for Justice. support Maori Rights and when we get the beach I will pay you for your vote. where as have this land as a farm, pay nothing, vote National is standard tradition of NZ.
even if it is bad manners of me to mention this.
market forces apply to others.
yes, I do think it is wrong that you can have unlimited access to electioneering. It strikes me as being a near suicidal way of attempting the democratic process.
the Law is shit
I said so at the top I think.
this is not the first example of this government failing to go through with legislation properly.
how much is too much law breaking?
I think I am tired of justice issues
no-one is prepared to offer why we do not need any laws at all
yet they do not want some laws
but want others as "common sense" or "good policy".
Go the Phoenix
but they aren't paying people for their votes, they are donating to a party and that money will be be used for election spending, which is just advertising. There are no bribes. Freedom is the right ot promote/advertise your beliefs as much as you can, and if that is determined by how much money you have then so what.
In the end nothing's fair. Certain groups in society are bound to labour/the left (civil servants, welfare recipients) and 'electioneering' isn't necessary for those votes(they are going to vote left no matter what, thus labour can direct all it's resources targetting other groups such as middle class swing voters). Big donations from the odd rich cunt to national might just even the playing field a bit. Not that it matters.
//Big donations from the odd rich cunt to national might just even the playing field a bit.//
Why does that make the playing field more level? Fairness isn't half way between National and Labour, it's giving everyone in the community an equal opportunity to have their voice heard.
Business interests opposed this Bill because they believed it was a grave threat to 'their' democracy, but it's not. There are plenty of loopholes for them to continue to dominate politics in this country, they can still own the media. Economic power and political power are intertwined and the only way to achieve total political equality is to have economic equality. There's no way that Labour would ever want to do that.
Next year some ultra-rich businessman with links to the Roundtable will deliberately spend over the limit supporting National and ACT and he'll be caught and punished. What will his punishment be? A fine that he can easily pay. He'll get to act like a martyr on the TV news. Really we should be punishing people who overspend on elections with lots of community service. Manual labour would serve as a much more effective detterent.
there's definitely bribes, but bribes are impossible to police.
Y'know, NZ's MPs could learn a thing or two from this thread. No name-calling here at all. Golf clap to you all.
I mean, "Rich prick?" Come on... that's embarrassingly juvenile. It smacks of the rantings of a sore loser. There's no need to call others names in parliament, fer chrissake.
i think,
in a system here where a mentally retarded person could hypothetically get elected.
to the government of the country
or as we've seen,
in an actual constituency.
in that kind of setup
when they've been arguing about next years coke for 5 weeks
and the country's still functioning as normal
then they are redundant
in my book
when all they can do for a country is start protests
jim morrison
comes to mind
pushing against the point of greatest resistance
is embarrassing for a government in a democracy
and the most cocky display of corruption since...
someone at stackhats
bought new zealanders a whole new approach to danger
3 News tonight
Winston Peters lambasting National over the bill
" paragons of democratic virtue"
this certainly rang some bells.
www.dontvotelabour.org.nz
holy smoke he's from Christchurch.
has anyone seen how easy it is to register as a third party?
hmmm... a bit of the ol' mass registration might be fun.
http://www.elections.org.nz/parties/apply-list-third-party.html